America can't be saved from ideology

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I am concluding that America and Western democracy is decaying and is unsaveable. I don't want this to be about left-right anymore. Why are we in such decline? Is it some type of divine punishment?

No matter what we try to do, the elites are always going to win, which is why I believe our punishment must be divinely-influenced. How else can you explain stuff?

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." ~ Churchill

I share your conclusion. The left wing is too far left and the right wing is too far right. Democracy requires choice but this extreme divide is unworkable. People think the solution to right wing extremism is to be a left wing extremist. People think the soution to left wing extremism is to be a right wing extremist.

I think the problem is the internet. The internet supports confirmation bias. It supports echo chamber groups for both sides. If a center left person goes on the internet he'll become far left. If a center right person goes on the internet he'll become far right. Balance is becoming an old fasioned idea.

Even non-conformist groups demand extreme conformity within their group. In the absence of a political tyrant people form their own tyranny within their social hierarchy. It's frightening. Perhaps it's an inescapable part of our biology.

I see deep flaws on both sides. Most of all I see that they mirror each other. For example the anti-SJWs are becoming increasingly like SJWs in their oppisition. It's like a civil cold war.

Might as well move beyond a democracy?

I agree that democracy is looking more and more corrupted by the day, the only way it can work is with reciprocation where the opposing sides recognizes the other's right to participate and govern in a democratic government. There can't be a democracy with without respect for rule of law and reciprocation, there can't be an elite unelected deep state. I see western democracy more and more as a facade for what really is an interconnected multinational dictatorship set up to serve/protect international business interests. What is the solution to this, how do we remove the parasitic new world order?

How do you remove the New World Order? I don't know, maybe that's the whole point of it.

Agreed

Yeah, I think this round of democracy may well be doomed. It always happens when cultures forget how/why democracies work.

That's what happened in the Roman Republic--people forgot how and why their system was supposed to work. The Gracchi came into power and abused the office of Tribune. Then their opponents (feeling backed into a corner) killed them--before this, even touching a Tribune was considered treason.

But after the Gracchi, Roman politics was full of Tribune-Demagogues, violence, hyper-partisanship and the Republic failed within decades...

Today people have forgotten that our system was designed to work on compromise. That's why we have gridlock and nothing gets done, because no one is willing to compromise.

Hell, Trump and others are criticizing the Senate and how slow its processes are. What they have forgotten here is that the Senate was designed to be slow and difficult, as a check on populist passions.

I think that soon, Senate rules will be changed to make it just like the House (already started with Supreme Court confirmations), and we will be on our way to tyranny of the majority.

After that, its only a matter of time before the oppressed minority (left or right) gets so frustrated that we will have open, violent civil conflict.

If you truly believe in such a thing, that is discussed, religiously.

Democracy may be doomed but I like the idea of it. I think 200 years ago the founding fathers set up an excellent system. The problem is that in the last hundred years people have been trying their hardest to subvert this system.

Yeah sure, us conservatives are dooming the country. We are TOTALLY ignorant of our own believes and the trouble it causes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTjG-Aux_yQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpKaB5dvQ4g

"United States getting nuked from corrupt politicians" has been done since the stone age.

I can also bring up Dante's Inferno for "religion will corrupt itself from within" and it's not like there is a local witch burning. It was worse back then than it is now.

No one here was blaming conservatives ZachGoodwin.
We're condemning bipartisan politics.

^ But it isn't just politics. With all this talk about "the deep state, fake news, and voter fraud" people are actively trying to undermine the public's trust in fundamental institutions like the professional civil service, the mainstream press, and our election process.

This is extremely dangerous, because these institutions form the foundation of our system. If people don't think these institutions are legitimate, they really have no reason to participant in the system or accept its authority.

Once enough people get to that point, we're screwed.

What if these institutions are corrupted and no longer worthy of the public's trust? The looming threat of tyrannical government is inherent in the American mindset, as the saying goes the liberty tree must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. The only reason to participate and accept authority is if the system is fair and there is reciprocation from the other side, if voting doesn't matter then the life of that democracy is dead and need be torn down so it can be replaced with something new.

No, the growth of the deep state, fake news, and voter fraud makes the institutions unworthy of trust.


No, the people form the foundation of our system.


Correct, and exactly as it should be, since that authority was granted to those institutions by the people, and if the institutions are no longer legitimate, the people should withdraw their consent and abolish the institutions.


No, once enough people get to that point, things begin to get better.

Democracy isn't the issue, it's the structure that's built up around it. Especially America, because you only get two choices. If both choices suck, then you're f****d!

Reform is needed in the structure of running the country, not democracy itself. But you can also have a better democratic system. In France, Le Pen went up against Macron in a second round, rather than just giving it to Macron as the first round front runner. This is good. But 1st to 4th were separated by a razor thin margin in relative terms. Macron got 24.01% while 4th place Melenchon got 19.58%. Less than 5% separated 1st and 4th! If you'd had five rounds instead of two, it could easily have been third or fourth which ultimately prevailed.

The easier it is for new parties to rise and challenge the status quo, the better. The more choice, the better.

A trickier problem is continuity. Trump is tearing apart Obama's work, and no doubt the one that follows Trump will tear apart what he did, and so on. If a company operated in such a way, it would get run out of business wasting so much energy and money and constantly replacing employees with new employees by another company that was a well oiled cohesive machine, continually striding forward and expanding.