Page 3 of 6 [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

NewTime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2015
Posts: 1,807

22 Jun 2017, 4:36 pm

Evolution is not called a theory because it's not known whether or not it occurs. What's not known is exactly how evolution occurs, which is why it's called a theory.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,182
Location: temperate zone

22 Jun 2017, 4:45 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
NewTime wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Such a religious authority as Pope John Paul II (the Pope before Francis) declared evolution to be a "fact."

According to this site, in his speech, all he said was "it's more than just a hypothesis".
http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html

Which is funny, since it's commonly called a "theory".


Evolution occurs. That is a fact. How it occurs is a theory. Which is why it's called the theory of evolution.

That's your opinion.

Science NEVER labels their discoveries as facts.

It's anti-science to shut-off any further contradictory evidence.


Yes but..
certain things ARE accepted as being (for practical purposes) "facts". Like the belief that humans have two arms, and two legs, and the belief that the earth orbits the sun (and not the other way around). We can stay open to evidence to the contrary all that we want for as long as we want, but its not likely that new evidence will come in to show that humans have 14 arms, and that the earth is flat. So those things are talked about as "facts".



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 66,046
Location: Queens, NYC

22 Jun 2017, 5:37 pm

I mean....the theologians have "offered" us a solution in the face of the virtual fact of evolution:

God CREATED the mechanism which underlies evolution. Evolution proceeded from there.

There you have it: Your Creation, and our Evolution!

Kills two birds with one stone, so to speak.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,205
Location: Twin Peaks

22 Jun 2017, 8:02 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I mean....the theologians have "offered" us a solution in the face of the virtual fact of evolution:

God CREATED the mechanism which underlies evolution. Evolution proceeded from there.

There you have it: Your Creation, and our Evolution!

Kills two birds with one stone, so to speak.


The problem with that is how it deals with the development of human beings. The idea is the first human came into existence fully evolved as such. Some would say even more evolved than we are now considering having a nearly thousand year lifespan. So I'm wondering how the Pope would deal with the Adam and Eve issue.

That's really the main objection I think from the Judeo-Christian-Islamic believers. The theory of evolution as it pertains to human beings, which means "we are just an advanced breed of monkeys" as Stephen Hawking put it, rather than created in the image of God.



Last edited by EzraS on 22 Jun 2017, 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 66,046
Location: Queens, NYC

22 Jun 2017, 8:10 pm

I don't know about Francis---but I believe Pope John Paul II thought of the Adam and Eve story as being an allegory, something symbolic, and which was placed in the Bible as an illustration of how "faulty" man really is. That Man gives in too much to Temptation. That Man must aspire to as much perfection as possible.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,205
Location: Twin Peaks

22 Jun 2017, 8:17 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't know about Francis---but I believe Pope John Paul II thought of the Adam and Eve story as being an allegory, something symbolic, and which was placed in the Bible as an illustration of how "faulty" man really is. That Man gives in too much to Temptation. That Man must aspire to as much perfection as possible.


I'm not sure about that because there's a whole genealogy and history attached to Adam. And still what it comes down to is we evolved from apes. I know some Christians try to have their cake and eat it too when it comes down to creation and evolution and I think they can, except for when it comes to the origin of mankind.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 66,046
Location: Queens, NYC

22 Jun 2017, 8:21 pm

Most of it is symbolic. There is some history in it---but it was written by the standards of the day, which weren't stringent as ours as far as "historical accuracy" is concerned.

Most theologians don't believe the Bible is to be interpreted totally literally. It's part fable, part chronology, part saga, part morality play, part literature, part biography, and many things I can't think of at the moment. It's a great anthology, really.

So what if we evolved from apes? Apes aren't bad creatures. We didn't evolve from "apes," literally. But from an ape-like ancestor.

It's better than if we evolved from gremlins.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,205
Location: Twin Peaks

22 Jun 2017, 8:43 pm

It defies the Judeo-Christian-Islamic belief that we are set apart from all else created in the image of God with an eternal soul. And that is the main reason why they reject the theory of evolution.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 66,046
Location: Queens, NYC

22 Jun 2017, 8:47 pm

Yep....that's the reason.

But...many Judeo-Christian theologians have jumped on the evolution bandwagon. I don't know about Islam. But there is a relatively "rationalist" side to Islam, too. It's not all 75 virgins. jihad, and things like that with Islam.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,205
Location: Twin Peaks

22 Jun 2017, 8:54 pm

Well I'd be interested in their take on human evolution. According to evolution were are no more significant than any other breed of animal who stared out as primordial ooze.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 66,046
Location: Queens, NYC

22 Jun 2017, 8:59 pm

But we are significant...we have evolved! We have work to do to become better and more evolved.

All living beings, to a greater or lesser extent, have evolved from the "primordial ooze."



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 66,046
Location: Queens, NYC

22 Jun 2017, 9:24 pm

You should undertake a study of the Bible.

And of works on evolution starting with Charles Darwin.

And read up on Mendelian heredity, too. Especially about mutations.

Mutations lead to bad things sometimes....but they also lead to evolution.



NewTime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2015
Posts: 1,807

22 Jun 2017, 10:06 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
NewTime wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Such a religious authority as Pope John Paul II (the Pope before Francis) declared evolution to be a "fact."

According to this site, in his speech, all he said was "it's more than just a hypothesis".
http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html

Which is funny, since it's commonly called a "theory".


Evolution occurs. That is a fact. How it occurs is a theory. Which is why it's called the theory of evolution.

That's your opinion.

Science NEVER labels their discoveries as facts.

It's anti-science to shut-off any further contradictory evidence.


Evolution has been directly observed. Pesticides have to be modified because insects become resistant to them. The pesticides in use 20 years from now won't be the same as those used now. The "theory" in evolution refers to how it occurs, not whether or not it occurs.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,205
Location: Twin Peaks

22 Jun 2017, 10:26 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
But we are significant...we have evolved! We have work to do to become better and more evolved.

All living beings, to a greater or lesser extent, have evolved from the "primordial ooze."


All possible metaphors aside such as talking snakes, it's perfectly clear the bible depicts man starting off as an advanced homosapien rather than evolving from a series of lower life forms. I'd be interested in Bill's take on it as well.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 66,046
Location: Queens, NYC

22 Jun 2017, 11:35 pm

How old do you believe the Earth is? I believe it is about 4.6 billion years old.