What's wrong with civic nationalism ?

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I consider myself a civic nationalist, and already people are calling me "fascist", for echoing those sentiments. But I will tell you, that its not the same. And people are wrong to equate simply being "alt right" with fascism either. They obviously know little about it ,and its painfully obvious they get their info from The Atlantic or Mother Jones or Huffington Post.. Oy Vey! A civic nationalist is one who has national pride: loves their country and traditions, and wants them to remain in tact. Someone who doesn't support "multiculturalism" or mass immigration. One who believes in homogenization . The way America has always been- a melting pot. Multiculturalism does not work. All one must do is look at Paris, France- or any city in Germany for that matter, to see what is happening multi cultural Marxism. I believe in Western values and that the West is the best! If you want to come over here, leave your old ways behind and become an American. That is all we ask. What is wrong with that? I don't care so much about race, I care about culture and I don't want The US to become Middle East Part II !

Ask a stupid person and you'll get a stupid answer.

I'd really only find it interesting if a centrist got confused over this and thought you were a fascist for being for civic nationalist, because it would apply to nearly any neoliberal, neoconservative, and it would apply to most libertarians. Aside from that I wouldn't push to make much sense of someone way off to the left or right not having normal reactions to things; in other news - water's wet.

Wow; somebody actually thought that you might be somewhat Fascistic because of your insistence on "homogenization"; that everyone look and act and think just like you, and your expressed hostility towards anyone who doesn't conform?

Wow; weird, huh

And of course, you say that with an extensive knowledge of these places...

I don't really think there's a difference between the "homogenisation" you praise and the "multiculturalism" you condemn. Certainly don't think that Paris or major German cities are any more multicultural than New York. Calling something "Marxist" just because you don't like it also doesn't exactly give you credibility.

It's fine to celebrate national holidays and support your country in international sporting competitions. That's a civic nationalism I can get behind. It's not OK to be against immigration. It's also likely to raise heckles when you express concern about the US becoming "Middle East pt. 2", because there's no chance of that.


If there's one thing the modern neoliberal movement can agree upon it's that there should only be minimal controls on immigration (stopping violent criminals and terrorist sympathisers but nobody else). Similarly, libertarians are necessarily opposed to restrictions upon liberty, such as immigration controls. They're also not centrists.

The disconnect in rvacountrysinger's OP is that he acts like the person called him a fascist for being civic nationalist and then he goes on to describe something that isn't civic nationalism.

Oy Vey? What's that supposed to mean? Did you really have to use an interjection that is stereotypically associated with Jews?



I suppose "national pride" is not inherently bad, but many people who support national pride will lie in order to preserve national pride. For example, many people will deny the Native American genocide in the name of "American Pride" or deny the harmful effects of apartheid in the name of "South African Pride".

I am generally suspicious of patriotism of any sort because there are countless people all over the world (not just in America) who use "national pride" as an excuse to lie about history, and demonize actual history geeks like me.

Furthermore, nearly every authoritarian in history has used "national pride" to control people.

So ... yeah. National pride won't always lead to authoritarianism. In the same way, feeding chocolate to an animal won't always kill it dead.

I think that America is going to remain intact for a long time. I'm not worried about that. How do you plan to preserve American traditions? Make laws? What American traditions do you want to preserve?



It's time for me to bring up a point that I always have to bring up constantly. Big businesses love mass immigration because it helps them make more money. Therefore, mass immigration will inevitably persist until America decides to restrict financial lobbying. America needs campaign finance reform now.

Additionally, America has always had "mass immigration". The first Americans were of Anglo-Saxon descent. Eventually, the German immigrants showed up. The caused some trouble at first. People were afraid that America was losing its culture. Eventually, the German immigrants became integrated into American society. Nowadays, most Americans have forgotten that there was ever a conflict between German-Americans and British-Americans.

The same thing happened with Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Japanese Americans and Chinese Americans. Most Americans, even those who are xenophobic, regard these people has harmless. They were originally regarded with suspicion. Imagine what American "patriots" are going to be saying in another 100 years.

"Arab Americans are totally okay! Some of my best friends are Arabs! It wouldn't be America without the Arabs! We need to protect America from those goddamn Kazaks though! Why won't they go back to their own country? They obviously will never integrate unless they are forced to!"

People believe in multiculturalism for a reason. History. Every "dangerous minority" that shows up in America eventually becomes integrated into American society. This is just going to keep happening and happening.



People are naturally different from one another.



The "melting pot" is an overrated concept. There are plenty of German-Americans who are still proud to be ethnically Germanic. American conservatives don't have any problem with that.

There are also many German-Americans who simply consider themselves "American" ... but that is a choice that they make. That sort of thing should not be enforced.



Go to an Italian restaurant. You just proved that multiculturalism eventually works in the end.



Some Western Muslims are angry because of Western foreign policy in the Middle East. Some of them are angry because the police distrust them because of the color of their skin. Most of them are peaceful though. The European nationalists are causing a great deal of terrorism though.

Another Thing: Bringing the "Marxism" card into this was childish and uncalled for. Throwing around the word "Marxism" is a cheap way to stir people up emotionally.

First of all, many wealthy capitalists support mass immigration. I already explained why. Second, many Marxist countries in the past have opposed multiculturalism. Stalin was against multiculturalism. So was Mugabe. So was Che Guevara. So was Kim Il Sung. So was Mao.



"Western values" is an overrated concept. Yes, the West is full of wealth. It also has a long history of imperialistic violence. That's one of the main reasons why the West is full of wealth. A good portion of it was stolen.

"Western values" like democracy and liberty are older than you think. These concepts exist in modern-day hunter-gatherer bands. Thus, the earliest humans already believed in democracy and liberty. Additionally, Western science was inspired by Ancient Egyptian science.



Don't worry so much. When the Irish came over to America, they had violent tendencies because they had been horribly oppressed by the British. Eventually, they calmed down. Today, many Irish Americans still have Irish accents. American conservatives are usually okay with this.

Ultimately, this comes back to my threads regarding campaign finance reform. Big Business is responsible for destabilising the Middle East and creating what we now call radical Islam. Big Business is also largely responsible for mass immigration. Case in Point: Trump's Muslim ban doesn't apply to Saudi Arabia because he does business there.

Never heard the term "civic nationalism" until now.
Not clear how it differs from just plain old "nationalism".

Have heard of "nationalism". And I have heard of "patriotism".

Patriotism is love of country.

Nationalism is love of the tribe, or of the ethnic group. Sort of racism-lite.

In a land of immigrants like the US patriotism is fine, but nationalism is basically meaningless as a concept unless it means favoring some immigrant groups (for example the earlier immigrant groups) over the other later immigrant groups.

Here's Paris in 2017:

The irony is your statement is that the native culture of a country much change to accommodate. When someone moves to a new country they take their beliefs and enforce it on that society, rather than the other way around? In
a sense it becomes cultural genocide. Homogenization is when people add things in, but it gets melted away over time and so it becomes collectively part of the culture without any sort of adding or taking away- hence that is part of Americanization!

If I were to go to Poland, I want to experience authentic Polish culture, cuisine, and the people of that land. I don't want to see some sort of third world in Poland. When I visit Germany- same deal. I want to experience what makes Germany authentically German. I don't see why that is a bad thing? It seems to me, that Asian countries are for all Asians, and African countries are for all Africans. But the European countries much change and become "multi cultural" - America included. That, to me , is forcing people to "conform" .

No, an Italian restaurant is not "multiculturalism". Multi culturalism is part of a globalist agenda. It is enforcing cultures on top of each other, in the sense that is happening now- Western Europe is being inundated with a culture that clashes inherently with the native culture of those countries. Its not a "melting pot". Its actually something evil and abhorrent. There is no sense in forcing the third world upon Europe or Americas. The United States and some European countries are being treated like battered women shelters. Its ridiculous.

Eventually what will happen is that these migrants will take over the native culture of the countries which they invade. It will not be a collective culture , but a very skewed and uneven society.

Really?

Alt-Right

Last edited by Piobaire on 11 Jan 2018, 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't see the problem here. Lots of people were wearing traditional Middle Eastern clothing? Who cares? It's none of your business!

I have no idea what the cops were doing at the end.

I will now respond to the video description.



Who cares? If my country was in the midst of a war and I moved to France, I would have difficulty speaking French too. Show some empathy.

I don't see why headscarves are a big deal. I totally understand why some people hate full veils, but headscarves don't look oppressive. They just look ladylike. Some Middle Eastern women want to wear a cute headscarf and a pretty dress. The horror!

By the way, most women in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome wore headscarves. The Virgin Mary is often depicted wearing a headscarf too. It's just a cute piece of clothing that classy ladies like to wear.



These "refugees welcome" signs are a response to the French far-right. Sadly, far-right lunacy exists in France too. It exists everywhere.

Civic Nationalists: Progressives are control freaks! They want to control every aspect of your life!
Also Civic Nationalists: Headscarves are bad! Don't wear that! Stop acting like a Middle Eastern person!

This is what women look like when they wear traditional Middle Eastern clothing. (Art by Nayzak)



Do you have an issue with this? I don't.

Former neo-Nazi: Here's why there's no real difference between 'alt-right,' 'white nationalism,' and 'white supremacy'

Most Western Muslims don't want to change Western culture. They just want the freedom to live as they choose.



This is where your utter lack of historical knowledge is showing.

Poland has existed for thousands of years. Polish culture has changed over the years. Ancient Poland was different from prehistoric Poland. Medieval Poland was different from ancient Poland. Modern Poland is different from medieval Poland.

Let's get back to that video of Paris. Paris is massive, as all cities are. I saw plenty of authentic French things in that video.

Paris will always have authentic Parisian food and authentic Parisian culture. Let's not forget that cities are massive. In every city, there is plenty of room for both old and new things.

Addionally, I'd like to see a video of Rural France. How many Muslims live there? Europe still has rural areas. Nearly everyone in those areas is white and Christian.

In general, rural areas tend to be time capsules that reflect a country's past. This is true of every country.

Do you know why some Christians use the word "heathen" as an insult? The word refers to heath, which is a plant found in rural areas. When Christianity was spreading throughout Europe, the rural farmers held onto polytheism as Christianity was becoming popular in urban areas. Seriously. That's a fact. There were hillbillies in ancient Europe, and they thought Christianity was for city slickers.



Poland has plenty of room for foreign things and things that are uniquely Polish. The country is 312,679 square kilometers in size. That's plenty of room.



Too wrongs don't make a right.

I agree. There is plenty of racism in Africa and Asia. Unfortunately, it's hard to do something about those countries when they are so far away.

During Mugabe's reign of terror, most Americans hated his anti-white racism ... but there wasn't much they could do about it.



There is a huge difference between tolerating foreigners and expecting people to conform. In fact, they are practically opposites of one another.

I honestly don't know what your goal is. Do you think that American culture is under attack? Most Americans still love America, and enjoy things that are uniquely American. Those things aren't going away. America is full of people who have fluttering American flags on their cars. They don't face much discrimination.

Overall, your attitude towards culture seems to be overly simplistic. Cultures are complex. A big city has room for several cultures. Cultures change overtime. Modern American culture is different from the culture that existed in America back in 1776. Culture is more complex than you think it is.

There's nothing wrong with civics. There's nothing wrong with patriotism.

Nationalism, though, I find to be quite grating.

We, in the US, are a nation of immigrants. They built this place, really.