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TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 7:20 am

Do not mistake me! I would not dare to either minimalize or deny that the genocidal extermination policies of the National Socialists actually took place. For, the same reason I would not dare to either minimalize or deny the genocidal exterminationist policies of the Soviet Communists. After all, I know I would get into a whole lot of trouble if I did either.

Still, if one would permit me to comment, I would advance a somewhat more subtle line of argument. A pet hypothesis, if I may. Namely, that the Anglo Saxon Ruling Class of America--- the Protestant Establishment, or whatever they are called today-- secretly feared that goods could be manufactured more cheaply and less expensively in the Soviet Gulag and the Nazi Concentration Camps, than in their very own factories and sweatshops, around the world.

Moreover, I further suspect that said Anglo Saxon Ruling Class colluded with their opposite numbers, among The British Establishment, to actually begin playing the Soviet Communists and the National Socialists, of Germany against each other for precisely that reason. It was the same ulterior motive, an economic motive, for opposing Slavery in The South, during The Civil War.



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27 Jan 2018, 9:22 am

Sure, that could be the case, if we completely forget that the gulag labor still existed during the Cold War, and it produced highly inferior products to the western democracies which is why they lost the entire debacle on an economic front.



TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 12:03 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Sure, that could be the case, if we completely forget that the gulag labor still existed during the Cold War, and it produced highly inferior products to the western democracies which is why they lost the entire debacle on an economic front.

Hmmm. The Capitalist Class, in America, may not have known that the Gulag produced inferior products. There may, indeed, have been a fear-- however little ground-- that Central Planning, whether of the Soviet or the Nazi variety, would supersede the American economy. When the Soviet Union fell, it did take me by surprise.



Aristophanes
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27 Jan 2018, 1:11 pm

TwinRuler wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Sure, that could be the case, if we completely forget that the gulag labor still existed during the Cold War, and it produced highly inferior products to the western democracies which is why they lost the entire debacle on an economic front.

Hmmm. The Capitalist Class, in America, may not have known that the Gulag produced inferior products. There may, indeed, have been a fear-- however little ground-- that Central Planning, whether of the Soviet or the Nazi variety, would supersede the American economy. When the Soviet Union fell, it did take me by surprise.

I don't think any of the capitalists in America feared central planning. It had it's purpose and was effective from ~1925-1940, but Russia was very much an agrarian state at that point, and central planning helped it modernize into an industrial nation. By the time WWII started most of Russia's central planning actually restricted their economy, especially compared to the dynamism of the capitalist economy of the U.S. There wasn't much fear there, perhaps the political fear that the reds would influence worker rights and unionization, but not fear based on the different macro-economics of the two regions.



TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 4:01 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
TwinRuler wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Sure, that could be the case, if we completely forget that the gulag labor still existed during the Cold War, and it produced highly inferior products to the western democracies which is why they lost the entire debacle on an economic front.

Hmmm. The Capitalist Class, in America, may not have known that the Gulag produced inferior products. There may, indeed, have been a fear-- however little ground-- that Central Planning, whether of the Soviet or the Nazi variety, would supersede the American economy. When the Soviet Union fell, it did take me by surprise.

I don't think any of the capitalists in America feared central planning. It had it's purpose and was effective from ~1925-1940, but Russia was very much an agrarian state at that point, and central planning helped it modernize into an industrial nation. By the time WWII started most of Russia's central planning actually restricted their economy, especially compared to the dynamism of the capitalist economy of the U.S. There wasn't much fear there, perhaps the political fear that the reds would influence worker rights and unionization, but not fear based on the different macro-economics of the two regions.

:D Well, that is very interesting to think about.



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27 Jan 2018, 4:12 pm

The extreme right in Germany, and the extreme left in the Soviet Union didn't need any prompting to hate one another by any outside elements. It's just that Stalin came to believe he could work with Hitler in the Nazi-Soviet pact, and Hitler took advantage of that.


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27 Jan 2018, 4:14 pm

I doubt it that the US feared the USSR economically.

They feared, greatly, the spread of Communism--really to an absurd degree.



TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 4:16 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I doubt it that the US feared the USSR economically.

They feared, greatly, the spread of Communism--really to an absurd degree.

That was especially so, during the 1950's.



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27 Jan 2018, 6:05 pm

There were still lots of "Commie Fears" when i was growing up in the 1960s.

Fear of "commies," was what was behind our "commitment" in Vietnam.



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27 Jan 2018, 8:03 pm

TwinRuler wrote:

Still, if one would permit me to comment, I would advance a somewhat more subtle line of argument. A pet hypothesis, if I may. Namely, that the Anglo Saxon Ruling Class of America--- the Protestant Establishment, or whatever they are called today-- secretly feared that goods could be manufactured more cheaply and less expensively in the Soviet Gulag and the Nazi Concentration Camps, than in their very own factories and sweatshops, around the world.

Moreover, I further suspect that said Anglo Saxon Ruling Class colluded with their opposite numbers, among The British Establishment, to actually begin playing the Soviet Communists and the National Socialists, of Germany against each other for precisely that reason. It was the same ulterior motive, an economic motive, for opposing Slavery in The South, during The Civil War.


I doubt it...Sounds like a long bow to draw...
While reason would suggest the existence of covert power groups manipulating their environment to better service their personal agenda, (this is in evidence throughout history and is in keeping with tribalist tendencies as a result of the evolutionary process), I have difficulty in embracing that particular intellectual construct of yours...meh... :mrgreen:

Edit:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There were still lots of "Commie Fears" when i was growing up in the 1960s.

Fear of "commies," was what was behind our "commitment" in Vietnam.


Indeed...
"Reds under the beds..." :mrgreen:

Edit:

Kraichgauer wrote:
The extreme right in Germany, and the extreme left in the Soviet Union didn't need any prompting to hate one another by any outside elements. It's just that Stalin came to believe he could work with Hitler in the Nazi-Soviet pact, and Hitler took advantage of that.


There have been theories which suggested Stalin's intention was ultimately to gain greater influence/control over Europe even before the war...
And that Hitler was pre-emptively anticipating that on top of the inherent desire to gain Lebensraum/resources...
I find it difficult to accept any suggestion of Stalin's naivete if that is what you are saying?
But I will bow to you greater historical knowledge and fair-mindedness... :mrgreen:

I don't expect an engagement since it is going off the topic...unless you want to, with the OP's permission... ;)


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Kraichgauer
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27 Jan 2018, 10:02 pm

Pepe wrote:
TwinRuler wrote:

Still, if one would permit me to comment, I would advance a somewhat more subtle line of argument. A pet hypothesis, if I may. Namely, that the Anglo Saxon Ruling Class of America--- the Protestant Establishment, or whatever they are called today-- secretly feared that goods could be manufactured more cheaply and less expensively in the Soviet Gulag and the Nazi Concentration Camps, than in their very own factories and sweatshops, around the world.

Moreover, I further suspect that said Anglo Saxon Ruling Class colluded with their opposite numbers, among The British Establishment, to actually begin playing the Soviet Communists and the National Socialists, of Germany against each other for precisely that reason. It was the same ulterior motive, an economic motive, for opposing Slavery in The South, during The Civil War.


I doubt it...Sounds like a long bow to draw...
While reason would suggest the existence of covert power groups manipulating their environment to better service their personal agenda, (this is in evidence throughout history and is in keeping with tribalist tendencies as a result of the evolutionary process), I have difficulty in embracing that particular intellectual construct of yours...meh... :mrgreen:

Edit:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There were still lots of "Commie Fears" when i was growing up in the 1960s.

Fear of "commies," was what was behind our "commitment" in Vietnam.


Indeed...
"Reds under the beds..." :mrgreen:

Edit:

Kraichgauer wrote:
The extreme right in Germany, and the extreme left in the Soviet Union didn't need any prompting to hate one another by any outside elements. It's just that Stalin came to believe he could work with Hitler in the Nazi-Soviet pact, and Hitler took advantage of that.


There have been theories which suggested Stalin's intention was ultimately to gain greater influence/control over Europe even before the war...
And that Hitler was pre-emptively anticipating that on top of the inherent desire to gain Lebensraum/resources...
I find it difficult to accept any suggestion of Stalin's naivete if that is what you are saying?
But I will bow to you greater historical knowledge and fair-mindedness... :mrgreen:

I don't expect an engagement since it is going off the topic...unless you want to, with the OP's permission... ;)


That was in fact released by the Russians themselves during Glasnost. I was taking a Russian history class in college at that time, and our instructor, who made it his business to keep up with the surge of released information, told us that in class. In fact, when the Germans were invading the Soviet Union, Stalin had initially rejected the reports, believing they were misinformation spread by agent provocateurs, nearly losing all his power and his whole country.


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28 Jan 2018, 1:17 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

That was in fact released by the Russians themselves during Glasnost. I was taking a Russian history class in college at that time, and our instructor, who made it his business to keep up with the surge of released information, told us that in class. In fact, when the Germans were invading the Soviet Union, Stalin had initially rejected the reports, believing they were misinformation spread by agent provocateurs, nearly losing all his power and his whole country.


I am in total agreement with is...
I also read about Stalin initially disbelieving the invasion by the Germans...
But this is not what I was referring to...
Stalin was surprised by the early attack but that doesn't refute my speculation that he had eyes on Europe some time down the track even before the war...
His "working with Hitler" may have merely been a case of biding time until the time was right to strike...
At a guess, I suspect he was an arrogant SOB who thought he was on top of the situation...

David Irving believes a similar thing happened when the British "advanced" to the beaches of Dunkirk...
He suspects/theorises that Hitler thought it inconceivable that they, the British, would "betray their allies" in such a manner, hence Hitler's refusal in ordering the attack on the retreating British forces...

In essence, Hitler and Stalin made a boo boo... :mrgreen:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Kraichgauer
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28 Jan 2018, 1:40 am

Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

That was in fact released by the Russians themselves during Glasnost. I was taking a Russian history class in college at that time, and our instructor, who made it his business to keep up with the surge of released information, told us that in class. In fact, when the Germans were invading the Soviet Union, Stalin had initially rejected the reports, believing they were misinformation spread by agent provocateurs, nearly losing all his power and his whole country.


I am in total agreement with is...
I also read about Stalin initially disbelieving the invasion by the Germans...
But this is not what I was referring to...
Stalin was surprised by the early attack but that doesn't refute my speculation that he had eyes on Europe some time down the track even before the war...
His "working with Hitler" may have merely been a case of biding time until the time was right to strike...
At a guess, I suspect he was an arrogant SOB who thought he was on top of the situation...

David Irving believes a similar thing happened when the British "advanced" to the beaches of Dunkirk...
He suspects/theorises that Hitler thought it inconceivable that they, the British, would "betray their allies" in such a manner, hence Hitler's refusal in ordering the attack on the retreating British forces...

In essence, Hitler and Stalin made a boo boo... :mrgreen:


The notion that Stalin was simply trying to bide his time was the excuse he gave to his country, and to the rest of the world, when in fact he had allowed Hitler to play him like a cheap fiddle. Even psychopathic manipulators can get manipulated.


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