I am Conflicted!
Though I am no fan of the Nazis myself, I do not think that the Allies were really all that much better. After all, look at the Soviet Union for example. Now, the Soviet Union, especially under Joseph Stalin, carried out many of the very same types of military atrocities and crimes against Humanity, usually associated with the Nazis.
After all, what do you suppose that The Gulag was? Mind you, people in the West do not seem to realize how much the Gulag of the Soviet Union resembled the Death Camps of Nazi Germany. After all, the Soviet Communists also had various ghastly and Satanic ways to torture, butcher and work to death their victims therein, the Zeks. Moreover the Soviet N.K.V.D. actually were, if I am not too much mistaken, the Soviet equivalent of what was termed the SS in Nazi Germany.
And, that, of course, is not to speak of the decision to drop the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, near the end of the war. After all, that was a racially motivated war-crime, if anything ever is.
Apples and Oranges.
While I'm no fan of Stalin, the Soviet purges had everything to do with politics, ideological purity, and the paranoia of an autocrat, while the Nazi death camps of Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau were expressly extermination camps on an industrial scale, primarily for minorities, particularly racial and religious minorities. The NKVD was primarily concerned with internal security, especially political, and as a secret police was much more comparable to the Gestapo than the SS, which was tasked with the ethnic cleansing of captured territories.
Okinawa, the first part of territorial Japan to be invaded, resulted in over 50,000 American casualties as over 100,000 Japanese fought to the death or committed suicide, despite the island being completely surrounded and the tactical situation completely hopeless. Military planners extrapolated that experience to a planned invasion of the rest of the Japanese archipelago, and predicted over 1 million Allied casualties. The Potsdam Declaration called for the unconditional surrender of Japan; on 28 July 1945 Japan flatly refused to surrender. Japan announced their unconditional surrender on 15 August; after the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing. Whether or not it constituted a war crime may be debatable, but was not a "racially motivated war-crime"; we incinerated Dresden & Hamburg, too, and their doomed populations were European, lily-white and round-eyed.
More people were killed in the firebombing of Tokyo using conventional ordinance on the nights of 9 & 10 March 1945 than in the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki combined. The problem isn't which weapons we choose to use; it's the fact that we choose to resort to weapons at all.
While I'm no fan of Stalin, the Soviet purges had everything to do with politics, ideological purity, and the paranoia of an autocrat, while the Nazi death camps of Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau were expressly extermination camps on an industrial scale, primarily for minorities, particularly racial and religious minorities. The NKVD was primarily concerned with internal security, especially political, and as a secret police was much more comparable to the Gestapo than the SS, which was tasked with the ethnic cleansing of captured territories.
Okinawa, the first part of territorial Japan to be invaded, resulted in over 50,000 American casualties as over 100,000 Japanese fought to the death or committed suicide, despite the island being completely surrounded and the tactical situation completely hopeless. Military planners extrapolated that experience to a planned invasion of the rest of the Japanese archipelago, and predicted over 1 million Allied casualties. The Potsdam Declaration called for the unconditional surrender of Japan; on 28 July 1945 Japan flatly refused to surrender. Japan announced their unconditional surrender on 15 August; after the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing. Whether or not it constituted a war crime may be debatable, but was not a "racially motivated war-crime"; we incinerated Dresden & Hamburg, too, and their doomed populations were European, lily-white and round-eyed.
More people were killed in the firebombing of Tokyo using conventional ordinance on the nights of 9 & 10 March 1945 than in the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki combined. The problem isn't which weapons we choose to use; it's the fact that we choose to resort to weapons at all.
Also we found out after their surrender the Japanese had a lot more troops, guns, planes etc then we thought and planed for. Their plan was to throw everything they had includ No kids at us to make us bleed so much we’d agree to a peace terms that’d allow them to remain as is and recover and rebuild. They were littrally teaching kids to attack us soldiers with brooms , toys anything they could get their hands on. It was going be a total war. They wanted a decisive battle to bring us to peac terms. Even after the first bomb dropped they still were wanting to fight in, it was more likely the Russian invasion that brought them to surrender to us rather then face Russian occupation, and not the bombs. Their government was split. It took the emperor to break the split even then members of the military took him hostage and tried to destroy his surrrender message.
After all, what do you suppose that The Gulag was? Mind you, people in the West do not seem to realize how much the Gulag of the Soviet Union resembled the Death Camps of Nazi Germany. After all, the Soviet Communists also had various ghastly and Satanic ways to torture, butcher and work to death their victims therein, the Zeks. Moreover the Soviet N.K.V.D. actually were, if I am not too much mistaken, the Soviet equivalent of what was termed the SS in Nazi Germany.
And, that, of course, is not to speak of the decision to drop the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, near the end of the war. After all, that was a racially motivated war-crime, if anything ever is.
Eyewitness testimony to the suffering of Germans after World War II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 0u9h7RTs_8
William D. Leahy:
"Once it had been tested, President Truman faced the decision as to whether to use it. He did not like the idea, but he was persuaded that it would shorten the war against Japan and save American lives. It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and that wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_D._Leahy
In the years since the two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan, a number of historians have suggested that the weapons had a two-pronged objective. First, of course, was to bring the war with Japan to a speedy end and spare American lives. It has been suggested that the second objective was to demonstrate the new weapon of mass destruction to the Soviet Union.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -hiroshima
The first is the standard, "official" version — the second bomb was necessary to prove that the United States could manufacture atomic weapons in quantity. That is, the first atomic bomb proved it could be done, the second proved it wasn't just a one-time thing.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/08/09/why-nagasaki/
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,798
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
After all, what do you suppose that The Gulag was? Mind you, people in the West do not seem to realize how much the Gulag of the Soviet Union resembled the Death Camps of Nazi Germany. After all, the Soviet Communists also had various ghastly and Satanic ways to torture, butcher and work to death their victims therein, the Zeks. Moreover the Soviet N.K.V.D. actually were, if I am not too much mistaken, the Soviet equivalent of what was termed the SS in Nazi Germany.
And, that, of course, is not to speak of the decision to drop the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, near the end of the war. After all, that was a racially motivated war-crime, if anything ever is.
Eyewitness testimony to the suffering of Germans after World War II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 0u9h7RTs_8
Too be sure, innocent German civilians did suffer during and after the war, but because of the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis, few sympathized with them at the time.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
They Japanese were not defeated and planning to surrender, they were seeking decisive battle thst would upset Americans enough to seek peace. People think Vietnam was bad.
Honestly it probably would have worked. If they’d killed million USA troops, we’d probably sought peace rather then continue fighting. But they got atom bombed and they failed to get continue peace with the soviets. They probably would have fought to th bitter end all the way to th streets of Tokyo, like the Nazis did.
We will prepare 10,000 planes to meet the landing of the enemy. We will mobilize every aircraft possible, both training and "special attack" planes. We will smash one third of the enemy's war potential with this air force at sea. Another third will also be smashed at sea by our warships, human torpedoes and other special weapons. Furthermore, when the enemy actually lands, if we are ready to sacrifice a million men we will be able to inflict an equal number of casualties upon them. If the enemy loses a million men, then the public opinion in America will become inclined towards peace, and Japan will be able to gain peace with comparatively advantageous conditions.
We still use those Purple Hearts today.
https://fas.org/irp/eprint/arens/chap4.htm
https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=54
After all, what do you suppose that The Gulag was? Mind you, people in the West do not seem to realize how much the Gulag of the Soviet Union resembled the Death Camps of Nazi Germany. After all, the Soviet Communists also had various ghastly and Satanic ways to torture, butcher and work to death their victims therein, the Zeks. Moreover the Soviet N.K.V.D. actually were, if I am not too much mistaken, the Soviet equivalent of what was termed the SS in Nazi Germany.
And, that, of course, is not to speak of the decision to drop the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, near the end of the war. After all, that was a racially motivated war-crime, if anything ever is.
Those in power will commit their atrocities and find ways to justify them.
Yes, the Germans civilians did suffer. Of course they did. So did many other ethnic groups immediately after World War II---hence, the Marshall Plan.
We Americans, even though we lost about 250,000 people, came out relatively unscathed, since the war wasn't prosecuted there. We should count ourselves fortunate.
They suffered because of the stupidity of the Nazis. The German Army was an invading army, seeking "living space.' They conquered multiple countries, and subjugated lots of people, and killed many.
We have to think about the suffering of the German civilians, of course. But the Allies had to do what they had to do. and most Germans understood that.
An understandable human reaction, very, very, unfortunately, but it doesn't make it right/moral/ethical to blame an entire race for something a segment of a group was responsible for...
It is in a similar camp as those proletariate christian thinkers in history who blamed the entire Jewish people for the death of Jesus...
Indefensible...
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,798
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
An understandable human reaction, very, very, unfortunately, but it doesn't make it right/moral/ethical to blame an entire race for something a segment of a group was responsible for...
It is in a similar camp as those proletariate christian thinkers in history who blamed the entire Jewish people for the death of Jesus...
Indefensible...
That is absolutely correct.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
An understandable human reaction, very, very, unfortunately, but it doesn't make it right/moral/ethical to blame an entire race for something a segment of a group was responsible for...
It is in a similar camp as those proletariate christian thinkers in history who blamed the entire Jewish people for the death of Jesus...
Indefensible...
That is absolutely correct.
When have I ever been wrong?
The Oracle of Truth has spoken...
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,798
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
An understandable human reaction, very, very, unfortunately, but it doesn't make it right/moral/ethical to blame an entire race for something a segment of a group was responsible for...
It is in a similar camp as those proletariate christian thinkers in history who blamed the entire Jewish people for the death of Jesus...
Indefensible...
That is absolutely correct.
When have I ever been wrong?
The Oracle of Truth has spoken...
All hail the oracle of WP!
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
An understandable human reaction, very, very, unfortunately, but it doesn't make it right/moral/ethical to blame an entire race for something a segment of a group was responsible for...
It is in a similar camp as those proletariate christian thinkers in history who blamed the entire Jewish people for the death of Jesus...
Indefensible...
Good point, Pepe.
After all, what do you suppose that The Gulag was? Mind you, people in the West do not seem to realize how much the Gulag of the Soviet Union resembled the Death Camps of Nazi Germany. After all, the Soviet Communists also had various ghastly and Satanic ways to torture, butcher and work to death their victims therein, the Zeks. Moreover the Soviet N.K.V.D. actually were, if I am not too much mistaken, the Soviet equivalent of what was termed the SS in Nazi Germany.
And, that, of course, is not to speak of the decision to drop the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, near the end of the war. After all, that was a racially motivated war-crime, if anything ever is.
Those in power will commit their atrocities and find ways to justify them.
How true!
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