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Shahunshah
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08 Apr 2018, 5:49 am

The chief economist of the world bank says that by 2050 their as estimated to be around 200 million climate refugees fleeing from what we now know as the arc of instability. And I think it is the IPCC estimated that in that same year, the amount of Carbon dioxide will be the most it has ever been in 24 million years. If that is our future won't we see nationalistic fervor and fear of different cultures be inflamed to a horrific level?



Daniel89
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08 Apr 2018, 6:01 am

They may want to flee to western countries but by then the west will have had enough of outsiders and have much stricter immigration policies.



NoClearMind53
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08 Apr 2018, 4:04 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
They may want to flee to western countries but by then the west will have had enough of outsiders and have much stricter immigration policies.

The west will have to abandon any notion of being some kind of moral beacon to the rest of the world. How can you simultaneously cause conditions that adversely affect others then deny them the ability to immigrate? I see an extremely dark future. Glad I’m not bringing anyone into this world.



Daniel89
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08 Apr 2018, 4:14 pm

The west has already given the world so much in the form of technology and medicine that is more than makes up for the negative effects of climate change. If we allow too many from the third world in we will turn into the third world.



kokopelli
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08 Apr 2018, 4:16 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
The chief economist of the world bank says that by 2050 their as estimated to be around 200 million climate refugees fleeing from what we now know as the arc of instability. And I think it is the IPCC estimated that in that same year, the amount of Carbon dioxide will be the most it has ever been in 24 million years. If that is our future won't we see nationalistic fervor and fear of different cultures be inflamed to a horrific level?


Climate refugees? Just what are they going to be fleeing from? Too much food?

There may be many refugees, but not from climate. It might help to actually look up "arc of instability". From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The Arc of Instability is a proposed, interconnected chain of politically unstable nation states in the Asia-Pacific region. The term came into vogue in the late 1990s, proving especially popular with Australian politicians and journalists. The Arc is also sometimes to referred to as balkanisation in a modern, Asia-Pacific context.

The phrase "Arc of Instability" has been used by the National Intelligence Council to describe "a great arc of instability stretching from Sub-Saharan Africa through North Africa, into the Middle East, the Balkans, the Caucasus, and South and Central Asia, and parts of Southeast Asia."

Definition and member states

The term is used to suggest that the members of the Arc are interconnected to the point that destabilisation within one country can have major political, military and economic repercussions in neighbouring countries. For example, Australian media and politicians claimed the destabilisation of the Solomon Islands was the result of a copycat or domino effect of the 2000 Fijian coup d'état.

In August 2006 Australian Defence Minister Brendan Nelson gave a speech to parliament on the topic of the Arc. Along with dropping Indonesia from the list of states in the Arc, he said:

We cannot afford to have failing states in our region. The so-called 'arc of instability', which basically goes from East Timor through to the south-west Pacific states, means that not only does Australia have a responsibility in preventing and indeed assisting with humanitarian and disaster relief, but also that we cannot allow any of these countries to become havens for transnational crime, nor indeed havens for terrorism.

There is no official list of member states in the Arc, however it has traditionally been accepted to include South-East Asian and Oceanic nations such as Papua New Guinea, The Solomon Islands, East Timor, Indonesia and Fiji.


From the Center for Strategic and International Studies:
Quote:
An arc of instability stretching across Africa’s Sahel region, an area of strategic interest for the United States and its allies, is plagued by violent extremist organizations (VEOs). These organizations, including Boko Haram, al Qaeda, and other terror groups, have metastasized and present a serious threat to regional stability. Now these VEOs are transitioning. Under sustained pressure from French and regional security forces, and reeling from the loss of senior leaders, many of these groups feel backed into a corner. Despite setbacks, the groups continue to plague the region. To enhance policymakers’ understanding of these threats and how to respond to them, CSIS experts from the Africa Program and Transnational Threats Project conducted field-based and scholarly research examining the broad range of factors at play in the region. This research provides little ground for optimism. Chronic underdevelopment, political alienation, failed governance and corruption, organized crime, and spillover from Libya help foster and sustain violent extremists throughout the Sahel.


it's about political instability. It's about extremist groups. It's about crime. It isn't about climate.

Sheesh!



Sweetleaf
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08 Apr 2018, 4:23 pm

Or maybe the environment should be top priority, so that such a grim future does not occur. I mean no one wakes up one morning and decides 'hey I want to be a refugee' usually they are in a situation where they have little choice. Why should we continue down the path of environmental destruction? There are lots of ways in which it can be addressed...its not only people who will be effected, animals habitats also are being effected so could be more animal migrations as well.

That said I think more exposure to people of different cultures can reduce fear of different cultures. Also I think its still largely people on the fringe who have that kind of nationalistic fervor not the majority so I don't think it really would.


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kokopelli
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08 Apr 2018, 4:25 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Or maybe the environment should be top priority, so that such a grim future does not occur. I mean no one wakes up one morning and decides 'hey I want to be a refugee' usually they are in a situation where they have little choice. Why should we continue down the path of environmental destruction? There are lots of ways in which it can be addressed...its not only people who will be effected, animals habitats also are being effected so could be more animal migrations as well.

That said I think more exposure to people of different cultures can reduce fear of different cultures. Also I think its still largely people on the fringe who have that kind of nationalistic fervor not the majority so I don't think it really would.


I don't understand the panic over having a more productive environment.



NoClearMind53
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08 Apr 2018, 4:31 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
The west has already given the world so much in the form of technology and medicine that is more than makes up for the negative effects of climate change. If we allow too many from the third world in we will turn into the third world.

This is quite a disgusting way of thinking. The future will be full of anger and bloodshed. It will make the horrors of the 20th century look like a walk in the park. If the world really is full of people like you, i.e. selfish toddlers who cannot and will not cooperate, civilization itself is pretty f****d. Nobody will be safe. I don’t plan on having offspring who will have the misfortune to grow up into this horror show.



NoClearMind53
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08 Apr 2018, 4:39 pm

kokopelli wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Or maybe the environment should be top priority, so that such a grim future does not occur. I mean no one wakes up one morning and decides 'hey I want to be a refugee' usually they are in a situation where they have little choice. Why should we continue down the path of environmental destruction? There are lots of ways in which it can be addressed...its not only people who will be effected, animals habitats also are being effected so could be more animal migrations as well.

That said I think more exposure to people of different cultures can reduce fear of different cultures. Also I think its still largely people on the fringe who have that kind of nationalistic fervor not the majority so I don't think it really would.


I don't understand the panic over having a more productive environment.


Ummmm... tropical continents will be subjected to desertification. Only far northern latitudes will see any benefit from a much warmer climate.



kokopelli
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08 Apr 2018, 4:57 pm

NoClearMind53 wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Or maybe the environment should be top priority, so that such a grim future does not occur. I mean no one wakes up one morning and decides 'hey I want to be a refugee' usually they are in a situation where they have little choice. Why should we continue down the path of environmental destruction? There are lots of ways in which it can be addressed...its not only people who will be effected, animals habitats also are being effected so could be more animal migrations as well.

That said I think more exposure to people of different cultures can reduce fear of different cultures. Also I think its still largely people on the fringe who have that kind of nationalistic fervor not the majority so I don't think it really would.


I don't understand the panic over having a more productive environment.


Ummmm... tropical continents will be subjected to desertification. Only far northern latitudes will see any benefit from a much warmer climate.


Why do you think that? Do you think that heat creates deserts? It doesn't.

During the warmest part of this interglacial warm period, the Holocene Climatic Optimum, temperatures were notably higher than today. The Sahara Desert was green. The Gobi Desert was forested. Northern Mexico was substantially wetter than it is today.



kokopelli
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08 Apr 2018, 5:04 pm

One other thing -- the warming is not equal around the world. Areas at the equator will see the least warming. In general, the further you are from the equator, the more the warming. The poles will likely see the most warming.

And another thing -- if heat causes deserts, then why isn't the equatorial regions, such as Ecuador and much of Brasil covered by deserts?



DarthMetaKnight
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08 Apr 2018, 5:21 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
The west has already given the world so much in the form of technology and medicine that is more than makes up for the negative effects of climate change.


What about the Native American Genocide?

What about Pinochet?

What about slavery?

It's safe to say that we haven't made up for those things.

Until Afro-Americans and Native Americans are freed from systemic discrimination, we will not have properly atoned for our crimes.

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If we allow too many from the third world in we will turn into the third world.


As long as we have a social safety net, we won't be like the third world.


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Shahunshah
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08 Apr 2018, 9:02 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
The west has already given the world so much in the form of technology and medicine that is more than makes up for the negative effects of climate change. If we allow too many from the third world in we will turn into the third world.

But Daniel, Daniel the life expectancy in the Congo is 59 years. If these advances are by and large only going to support people in the West then no debt has been paid off.

I am not advocating that Britain take on 200 million refugees. I am suggesting that the West should divide the cost amongst each and every nation. If we do that then these people can be catered for in the way in which Germany is catering for over 500,000 migrants.



Shahunshah
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08 Apr 2018, 9:05 pm

NoClearMind53 wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
The west has already given the world so much in the form of technology and medicine that is more than makes up for the negative effects of climate change. If we allow too many from the third world in we will turn into the third world.

This is quite a disgusting way of thinking. The future will be full of anger and bloodshed. It will make the horrors of the 20th century look like a walk in the park. If the world really is full of people like you, i.e. selfish toddlers who cannot and will not cooperate, civilization itself is pretty f****d. Nobody will be safe. I don’t plan on having offspring who will have the misfortune to grow up into this horror show.
We have to be brave. And fight this kind of nationalism. Many centuries have a defining struggle. In the 14th century, humanity struggled to save itself from the black death whilst in the 20th we struggled and succeeded in defeating the evil that is fascism. I think this is going to be our one.



Shahunshah
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08 Apr 2018, 9:10 pm

kokopelli wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
The chief economist of the world bank says that by 2050 their as estimated to be around 200 million climate refugees fleeing from what we now know as the arc of instability. And I think it is the IPCC estimated that in that same year, the amount of Carbon dioxide will be the most it has ever been in 24 million years. If that is our future won't we see nationalistic fervor and fear of different cultures be inflamed to a horrific level?


Climate refugees? Just what are they going to be fleeing from? Too much food?

There may be many refugees, but not from climate. It might help to actually look up "arc of instability". From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The Arc of Instability is a proposed, interconnected chain of politically unstable nation states in the Asia-Pacific region. The term came into vogue in the late 1990s, proving especially popular with Australian politicians and journalists. The Arc is also sometimes to referred to as balkanisation in a modern, Asia-Pacific context.

The phrase "Arc of Instability" has been used by the National Intelligence Council to describe "a great arc of instability stretching from Sub-Saharan Africa through North Africa, into the Middle East, the Balkans, the Caucasus, and South and Central Asia, and parts of Southeast Asia."

Definition and member states

The term is used to suggest that the members of the Arc are interconnected to the point that destabilisation within one country can have major political, military and economic repercussions in neighbouring countries. For example, Australian media and politicians claimed the destabilisation of the Solomon Islands was the result of a copycat or domino effect of the 2000 Fijian coup d'état.

In August 2006 Australian Defence Minister Brendan Nelson gave a speech to parliament on the topic of the Arc. Along with dropping Indonesia from the list of states in the Arc, he said:

We cannot afford to have failing states in our region. The so-called 'arc of instability', which basically goes from East Timor through to the south-west Pacific states, means that not only does Australia have a responsibility in preventing and indeed assisting with humanitarian and disaster relief, but also that we cannot allow any of these countries to become havens for transnational crime, nor indeed havens for terrorism.

There is no official list of member states in the Arc, however it has traditionally been accepted to include South-East Asian and Oceanic nations such as Papua New Guinea, The Solomon Islands, East Timor, Indonesia and Fiji.


From the Center for Strategic and International Studies:
Quote:
An arc of instability stretching across Africa’s Sahel region, an area of strategic interest for the United States and its allies, is plagued by violent extremist organizations (VEOs). These organizations, including Boko Haram, al Qaeda, and other terror groups, have metastasized and present a serious threat to regional stability. Now these VEOs are transitioning. Under sustained pressure from French and regional security forces, and reeling from the loss of senior leaders, many of these groups feel backed into a corner. Despite setbacks, the groups continue to plague the region. To enhance policymakers’ understanding of these threats and how to respond to them, CSIS experts from the Africa Program and Transnational Threats Project conducted field-based and scholarly research examining the broad range of factors at play in the region. This research provides little ground for optimism. Chronic underdevelopment, political alienation, failed governance and corruption, organized crime, and spillover from Libya help foster and sustain violent extremists throughout the Sahel.


it's about political instability. It's about extremist groups. It's about crime. It isn't about climate.

Sheesh!
I know what you are saying. My argument is that in the future it will become about the climate as sea levels rise and desertification grows.



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08 Apr 2018, 9:23 pm

Well, I'm definitely seeing a lot of butting heads over climate change and immigration. I'm pro-immigration and pro at least trying to reduce our carbon footprint and anything that can unnecessarily harm the environment. I know the latter may be difficult as we have a carbon footprint just by existing in this world, but there's no harm in taking some responsibility and at least trying to reduce our impact on the planet at least a little.