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thinkinginpictures
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17 Jul 2018, 12:16 pm

The reason Putin, Trump, Erdogan and Orban are winning elections again and again is because the Far Right is more popular the Centrist Left.

It is a world-wide phenomenon, and I cannot help but wonder why people find joy in repeating the same mechanism that happened in the 1930's that are happening again in the 21st century.

I'm not saying they are nazis, but the mechanisms are similar to that of the 1930's:

* High unemployment. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Hatred towards immigrants or other foreigners. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Hatred of the sick & disabled people recieving welfare benefits. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Popular Desire for increased military expenditures and re-instatement of compulsory military service. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

So what do all these "Strong Men" promise to do about these "problems"? Well first of all, they all begin with:

Dismantling the Welfare State, draft the sick, throw out foreigners and give hand-outs to big companies to ensure high employment.

They also do more like:

Censoring the press, imprison journalists who are critical to their administration, break old alliances with more liberal nations, and create alliances with dictatorships instead.

For some reason, the people love it. Why?



kraftiekortie
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17 Jul 2018, 12:19 pm

Because of this stupid thing called "complacency."

People just want things done for them. People want somebody to think for them.



thinkinginpictures
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17 Jul 2018, 12:35 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Because of this stupid thing called "complacency."

People just want things done for them. People want somebody to think for them.


I doubt it. Even if the left did the thinking for them, the people would still disagree with the left.

It is as if the people truly wants a brutal society!

* The People love war and hate peace.

* The People love a public execution every now and then and hate when mentally ill offenders are treated or rehabilitated instead.

* The People really likes when non-convicted are tortured to give confessions. They hate a fair trial.

* The People WANTS disable-bashing. They hate welfare.



kraftiekortie
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17 Jul 2018, 12:39 pm

At least 1 billion people would disagree with that premise.....they don't seem to mind, too much, living under the Chinese form of government (partially left, and partially right).

Saying this, there's quite a bit of "reactionary" sorts of thought in the world. Wanting to "react" to people and ideas such as foreigners, Muslims, Liberals, people not of their ethnic heritage....without, in any way, working towards any "solution" to anything.

"Just get rid of them!! !! !! !"



thinkinginpictures
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17 Jul 2018, 12:54 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
At least 1 billion people would disagree with that premise.....they don't seem to mind, too much, living under the Chinese form of government (partially left, and partially right).

Saying this, there's quite a bit of "reactionary" sorts of thought in the world. Wanting to "react" to people and ideas such as foreigners, Muslims, Liberals, people not of their ethnic heritage....without, in any way, working towards any "solution" to anything.

"Just get rid of them!! ! ! ! ! !"


China is reactionary as well. The Chinese love their government because it censors the press, execute critics and are allied with the world's most brutal dictatorship, North Korea.

China is not part left, part right. China is, despite its "communist" party, not communist but fascist. It has 100 % of all the traits of fascism. China is Right wing.



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17 Jul 2018, 1:09 pm

I don't know that it's unpopular worldwide. Living in the U.S., I feel I can only speak with some level of knowledge about what happens here.

Prior to the 2016 election, the media and "the left", in my opinion, had the U.S. citizenry convinced that the country was far and away a majority of liberal "left" voters. Remember Hillary was not going to win by a small margin, she was going to sweep the country in a landslide? The media had the U.S. thinking that conservatives were a fractionally small minority. Seriously, that's how it was. There were a few straggling conservatives leftover from some prior bigoted generation but that the rest of country was SOLIDLY "blue". That's what we were led to believe.

Then the election happened. Yes, Hillary won the popular vote in what at this point is believed to be comprised of 100% legal voting. However, when I saw that red/blue map which showed how each county in each state across the U.S. voted, my jaw literally dropped. I'm not kidding.
Image

To see that aside from Minnesota, New Mexico and maybe another state or two in the middle of the country voting "blue" (Minnesota just barely), blue states were made up of the densely populated coastal metropolis areas almost exclusively. The higher the population density, the greater the propensity toward groupthink. Aside from those coastal urban densities, the most of the rest of the U.S. was red. I was dumbfounded. I think we were lied to by the media in that regard in a major and unforgivable way.

People talk about a "blue wave" in 2018 mid-term elections. Anything can happen. I have to wonder though, if more people who realized that they weren't the sole conservative among a country of liberals after all when the 2016 election results came in, if the mid-terms will be soundly conservative. A trouncing of sorts.

We'll see.



Last edited by Magna on 17 Jul 2018, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Jul 2018, 1:12 pm

Why is the Left unpopular worldwide? Because...

... Some people just want things done for them.
... Some people want somebody to think for them.
... Some people want hand-outs that they don't have to earn.
... Some people want free education, free medical care, and rent-free housing.
... Some people want a Nanny-State style of government that does not require their participation.
... Some people crave Socialism without realizing that it has the downside of oppressive taxation.
... Some people want a military and police force that always goes after the "other guy".
... Some people are lazy.
... Some people are stupid.

And those "Some" people give Leftism a very bad image.


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17 Jul 2018, 1:54 pm

I found the 2016 fascinating in so many respects. One reason I think Trump won as well is because throughout Obama's two terms and continuing with Clinton's run for presidency, the "left" had pushed and pushed hard, it's own view of Utopian ideals that the "middle" of the country was having none of. Unless a person worked for a governmental body (federal, state or local) or worked for a non-profit or other type of large institution receiving grant money, the last ten or so years of the recession has been a serious financial hardship for most "private sector" working Americans. Obama and Clinton were placing importance on literally the highest of needs on Maslow's hierarchy. Esteem and Self-actualization. Trump was focusing on the two most important foundational need categories, the basic human needs.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, a diagram of what is most important to human beings. The basic foundation needs are the most important with those at the top of the pyramid the least important or only important IF the lower needs are met first.

Image

In extreme cases (famine, war, etc) when physiological and safety needs of a society or group of people aren't solidly being met, "needs" such as Esteem and Self-actualization are a non-issue to such people. In relation, they would be considered to be "wants" whereas undeniably and unarguably physiological and safety needs are actually....true needs.



Last edited by Magna on 17 Jul 2018, 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thinkinginpictures
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17 Jul 2018, 2:24 pm

Fnord wrote:
Why is the Left unpopular worldwide? Because...

... Some people want hand-outs that they don't have to earn.


Some people need it, because they can't earn their money, because they are ill/disabled and their capability of performing work to earn their own money, is severely limited.

Fnord wrote:
... Some people want free education, free medical care, and rent-free housing.


What is wrong with education and medical care that is free (paid by taxation)?

Rent-free housing does not exist and never will.

Fnord wrote:
... Some people crave Socialism without realizing that it has the downside of oppressive taxation.


We need this "oppressive taxation" to keep a well-functioning society that includes everyone, and gives everyone equal opportunities of realizing their dreams, combat illnesses and generally speaking, create a safe and happy nation. Norway has "oppressive taxation" as do Denmark and Sweden and these nations are ranked on the top-most happy nations in the entire world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Hap ... ess_Report

This is not despite of the welfare state, but BECAUSE of the welfare state!
Fnord wrote:
And those "Some" people give Leftism a very bad image.


Sorry, I fail to see how achieving nation-wide happiness can give you a bad image.

Fnord, I see you hate welfare and you hate the sick/disabled who try and have a life.
Pray you don't get sick/disabled yourself!



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17 Jul 2018, 2:41 pm

Magna wrote:
I found the 2016 fascinating in so many respects. One reason I think Trump won as well is because throughout Obama's two terms and continuing with Clinton's run for presidency, the "left" had pushed and pushed hard, it's own view of Utopian ideals that the "middle" of the country was having none of. Unless a person worked for a governmental body (federal, state or local) or worked for a non-profit or other type of large institution receiving grant money, that last ten or so years of the recession has been a serious financial hardship for most Americans. Obama and Clinton were placing importance on literally the highest of needs on Maslow's hierarchy. Esteem and Self-actualization. Trump was focusing on the two most important foundational need categories, the basic human needs.


Obamacare was trying to meet the basic psychological and safety needs by providing a health insure to americans.

However, hatred towards minorities and the sick & disabled is quite strong in this world, and this hatred towards the weak members of society is stronger than any other psychological need. You can give the ordinary working class citizen food, shelter, a solid Health Insurance, even a car and family - you can give him EVERYTHING in Mashlows hierarchy, but the chances are that he would still be angry at those who are weak, remains high.

Ordinary "normal" people's hatred to the weak is unaffected by the needs met in the Mashlow hierarchy.

This hatred of the weak, disabled, the sick, minorities, is the cause of The Trump Era.

The only thing which combat hatred of the disabled, is to have a disability or severe illness yourself, apparently!

The more needs met in the Mashlow hierarchy the higher the individual ranks in the social pecking order, the higher you rise in the social pecking order, the more contempt and hatred you have of those who are worse off than yourself.



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17 Jul 2018, 4:14 pm

I don't think it is. It just seems like a whole bunch of far-right trolls have come out of the woodwork since the last election, but according to polls, they're in the minority. The last election was an anomaly caused by revelations brought to light just before voting commenced. I'm sure plenty of left-wing people voted the other way, or just didn't vote. If I were American that would probably have been an election I would sit out though, as the choices came down to a witch and an idiot, and neither choice was appealing.

Oh well, at least Hilary winning the popular vote proves the US is in fact ready for a female president when the right candidate presents herself, without having to actually make Hillary the first. On the other hand, I don't know how I would feel being governed by someone who's intellectually inferior to me. I at least prefer when it appears that my political leader has enough intelligence for the job. King Oompa Loompa isn't even trying to maintain that illusion. That said, that's not my country so it's not my business. May his reign be short-lived.



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17 Jul 2018, 4:18 pm

it's just a phase, i think, after the centrist left dominated politics and mainstream consciousness. people have to rebel - about anything really, for the sake of it, thinking ~change~ is gonna fall from the sky. they'll soon get tired with their cool new idols after they realise their interests won't be met.


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17 Jul 2018, 4:26 pm

Right, why do people vote right when the left is so perfect?



kraftiekortie
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17 Jul 2018, 4:31 pm

I don't feel people, in the US, were necessarily voting "right."

I feel like they were voting for "anti-Hillary." Perhaps anti-Clinton dynasty.

But then you have the rightist views about immigration and about isolationism......



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17 Jul 2018, 4:32 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Magna wrote:
I found the 2016 fascinating in so many respects. One reason I think Trump won as well is because throughout Obama's two terms and continuing with Clinton's run for presidency, the "left" had pushed and pushed hard, it's own view of Utopian ideals that the "middle" of the country was having none of. Unless a person worked for a governmental body (federal, state or local) or worked for a non-profit or other type of large institution receiving grant money, that last ten or so years of the recession has been a serious financial hardship for most Americans. Obama and Clinton were placing importance on literally the highest of needs on Maslow's hierarchy. Esteem and Self-actualization. Trump was focusing on the two most important foundational need categories, the basic human needs.


Obamacare was trying to meet the basic psychological and safety needs by providing a health insure to americans.

However, hatred towards minorities and the sick & disabled is quite strong in this world, and this hatred towards the weak members of society is stronger than any other psychological need. You can give the ordinary working class citizen food, shelter, a solid Health Insurance, even a car and family - you can give him EVERYTHING in Mashlows hierarchy, but the chances are that he would still be angry at those who are weak, remains high.

Ordinary "normal" people's hatred to the weak is unaffected by the needs met in the Mashlow hierarchy.

This hatred of the weak, disabled, the sick, minorities, is the cause of The Trump Era.

The only thing which combat hatred of the disabled, is to have a disability or severe illness yourself, apparently!

The more needs met in the Mashlow hierarchy the higher the individual ranks in the social pecking order, the higher you rise in the social pecking order, the more contempt and hatred you have of those who are worse off than yourself.


Obamacare costs me $20,000 per year in insurance premiums for me and my family. It's not hyperbole for me to say that it has been financially devastating to me and continues to be so.

I fully agree with you that human beings as a species base societal desires, rights and largely laws in favor of "the strong" to the detriment of "the weak". The greatest illustration of this is found in how literally the weakest among us, the unborn, have no rights of any kind. I think we stay barbaric or devolve even further as a species unless we reverse course in regard to how we treat "the weak".



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17 Jul 2018, 5:13 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
The reason Putin, Trump, Erdogan and Orban are winning elections again and again is because the Far Right is more popular the Centrist Left.

It is a world-wide phenomenon, and I cannot help but wonder why people find joy in repeating the same mechanism that happened in the 1930's that are happening again in the 21st century.

I'm not saying they are nazis, but the mechanisms are similar to that of the 1930's:

* High unemployment. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Hatred towards immigrants or other foreigners. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Hatred of the sick & disabled people recieving welfare benefits. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Popular Desire for increased military expenditures and re-instatement of compulsory military service. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

So what do all these "Strong Men" promise to do about these "problems"? Well first of all, they all begin with:

Dismantling the Welfare State, draft the sick, throw out foreigners and give hand-outs to big companies to ensure high employment.

They also do more like:

Censoring the press, imprison journalists who are critical to their administration, break old alliances with more liberal nations, and create alliances with dictatorships instead.

For some reason, the people love it. Why?


I'd like to mention: it's not only the populist right, but also the polpulist left that's gaining traction, Syriza in Greece and Podemos in Spain. The whole of south america. And Bernie Sanders, if his campaign hadn't been killed by the centrists.
I guess the answer is: the center rights seem to be convinced more easily to join the far right populists.
In part because they have this odd tendency to try to outdo the far rights, - look at the German CSU which is trying to out-right the AfD, to get its voters back. Same for the Austrian ÖVP, which turned into a carbon copy of the far right FPÖ.


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