Are human beings capable of peaceful coexistence?
08 Aug 2018, 12:35 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I don’t think it can happen while people always have to be “right.” People often think that the have the only “right” religion, government, or political leader. Until we can respect each other’s differences and evolve a higher sense of morality (that’s not from some archaic religion), it’s not going to happen.
How do you show respect to religions and their ideologies, like Christianity and Islam, when they are so morraly wrong?
Both religions, for instance, are slave holding ideologies that has become homophobic and misogynous religions.
How do we show respect for such ideologies that do not deserve it?
Regards
DL
I don’t like these ideologies myself, but they’re going to be around for awhile. Trying to treat these groups respectfully is better than fighting.
I did not disagree with you.
I repeat my question.
How do we show respect for such ideologies that do not deserve it?
Will you tell the homophobe and misogynous that you respect their positions when you cannot honestly do so?
I can try all I like to love the sinner and hate the sin but, the rapist raping my wife will know my hate when he dies or I have the bastard incarcerated.
There is a time for hate and if you do not pick your times then you are not a moral person.
Regards
DL
I think it’s best to find common ground with people and avoid topics that will cause contention. Maybe you can gently change a person’s thinking. If you come out and attack them, they won’t change. They’ll feel they’re being “persecuted.” As a former fundie, I understand this issue all too well.
Any criminal behavior (or suspected criminal behavior) such as rape, domestic violence, or child abuse should be reported to the police. Some people have chosen to leave or not join religions because of the prevalence of abuse that goes on. The more cases that are reported the fewer members there will be.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 08 Aug 2018, 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
08 Aug 2018, 1:00 pm
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I don’t think it can happen while people always have to be “right.” People often think that the have the only “right” religion, government, or political leader. Until we can respect each other’s differences and evolve a higher sense of morality (that’s not from some archaic religion), it’s not going to happen.
How do you show respect to religions and their ideologies, like Christianity and Islam, when they are so morraly wrong?
Both religions, for instance, are slave holding ideologies that has become homophobic and misogynous religions.
How do we show respect for such ideologies that do not deserve it?
Regards
DL
I don’t like these ideologies myself, but they’re going to be around for awhile. Trying to treat these groups respectfully is better than fighting.
Then you would be rewarding poor thinking that leads to a lot of harm.
You would be helping evil grow.
For evil to grow, all you need do is respect those who propagate it.
That is why you cannot show how you would show respect for those who have such poor thinking.
Live by these instead, please.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Love the sinner and hate the sin only after he is no longer a sinner and you can respect him. To respect sinners is to disrespect those who are not sinners.
Stop rewarding sinners and showing evil respect.
Regards
DL
08 Aug 2018, 1:09 pm
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I don’t think it can happen while people always have to be “right.” People often think that the have the only “right” religion, government, or political leader. Until we can respect each other’s differences and evolve a higher sense of morality (that’s not from some archaic religion), it’s not going to happen.
How do you show respect to religions and their ideologies, like Christianity and Islam, when they are so morraly wrong?
Both religions, for instance, are slave holding ideologies that has become homophobic and misogynous religions.
How do we show respect for such ideologies that do not deserve it?
Regards
DL
I don’t like these ideologies myself, but they’re going to be around for awhile. Trying to treat these groups respectfully is better than fighting.
I did not disagree with you.
I repeat my question.
How do we show respect for such ideologies that do not deserve it?
Will you tell the homophobe and misogynous that you respect their positions when you cannot honestly do so?
I can try all I like to love the sinner and hate the sin but, the rapist raping my wife will know my hate when he dies or I have the bastard incarcerated.
There is a time for hate and if you do not pick your times then you are not a moral person.
Regards
DL
I think it’s best to find common ground with people and avoid topics that will cause contention. Maybe you can gently change a person’s thinking. If you come out and attack them, they won’t change. They’ll feel they’re being “persecuted.” As a former fundie, I understand this issue all to well.
Any criminal behavior (or suspected criminal behavior) such as rape, domestic violence, or child abuse should be reported to the police. Some people have chosen to leave or not join religions because of the prevalence of abuse that goes on. The more cases that are reported the fewer members there will be.
"I think it’s best to find common ground with people and avoid topics that will cause contention."
I see.
Would you, if you lived in the U.S. North just before the Civil War, ignore the slavery in the South and just chat with Southerners about where you think alike?
You sure seem hell bent on not calling out evil where you see it and it is those of your ilk who add to the homophobia ands misogyny of religions by not attacking those topics and the immoral pricks who propagate those issues.
Sure, a civil discussion to consensuses is good, but that cannot happen with those whose moral sense has been corrupted by their evil religions.
Regards
DL
08 Aug 2018, 1:13 pm
hobojungle wrote:
In my own experience, I’ve found that a personal relationship with unitive consciousness through meditation is my path. I don’t ascribe to organized religions or their associates. I even hate some humans. But I believe in freedom of religion...until we don’t need freedom of religion anymore. All I can do is model though; I’ve found moralizing less effective.
Yet religions are supposed t0o be all about morals.
Yours might be a good path for you, but if you do not use your insight to try to improve the morality of those whose morals are inferior, you are helping evil grow.
Is that really what you want to do?
Regards
DL
08 Aug 2018, 1:18 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I don’t think it can happen while people always have to be “right.” People often think that the have the only “right” religion, government, or political leader. Until we can respect each other’s differences and evolve a higher sense of morality (that’s not from some archaic religion), it’s not going to happen.
How do you show respect to religions and their ideologies, like Christianity and Islam, when they are so morraly wrong?
Both religions, for instance, are slave holding ideologies that has become homophobic and misogynous religions.
How do we show respect for such ideologies that do not deserve it?
Regards
DL
I don’t like these ideologies myself, but they’re going to be around for awhile. Trying to treat these groups respectfully is better than fighting.
I did not disagree with you.
I repeat my question.
How do we show respect for such ideologies that do not deserve it?
Will you tell the homophobe and misogynous that you respect their positions when you cannot honestly do so?
I can try all I like to love the sinner and hate the sin but, the rapist raping my wife will know my hate when he dies or I have the bastard incarcerated.
There is a time for hate and if you do not pick your times then you are not a moral person.
Regards
DL
I think it’s best to find common ground with people and avoid topics that will cause contention. Maybe you can gently change a person’s thinking. If you come out and attack them, they won’t change. They’ll feel they’re being “persecuted.” As a former fundie, I understand this issue all to well.
Any criminal behavior (or suspected criminal behavior) such as rape, domestic violence, or child abuse should be reported to the police. Some people have chosen to leave or not join religions because of the prevalence of abuse that goes on. The more cases that are reported the fewer members there will be.
"I think it’s best to find common ground with people and avoid topics that will cause contention."
I see.
Would you, if you lived in the U.S. North just before the Civil War, ignore the slavery in the South and just chat with Southerners about where you think alike?
You sure seem hell bent on not calling out evil where you see it and it is those of your ilk who add to the homophobia ands misogyny of religions by not attacking those topics and the immoral pricks who propagate those issues.
Sure, a civil discussion to consensuses is good, but that cannot happen with those whose moral sense has been corrupted by their evil religions.
Regards
DL
What you fail to understand is that by “calling them out” they are only going to feel persecuted and this will, in turn, further cement their beliefs.
When they’re doing something that we can take legal action against, we should do that, but attacking them for their beliefs will have no positive outcome.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
08 Aug 2018, 1:21 pm
A lot of people’s distasteful and immoral beliefs come directly from the Bible which is to them the “Word of God.” Attacking these “Truths” will put you in league with Satan the ultimate tempter and tester of faith.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 08 Aug 2018, 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
08 Aug 2018, 1:31 pm
Twilightprincess wrote:
When they’re doing something that we can take legal action against, we should do that, but attacking them for their beliefs will have no positive outcome.
Tell that to all the gays whose fighting against the homophobia in religions finally made secular law do the right thing.
Your ilk are a part of the problem and not a part od the solution.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is what you recommend --- yet cannot show how you can show respect for what does not deserve respect.
Regards
DL
08 Aug 2018, 1:34 pm
Twilightprincess wrote:
A lot of people’s distasteful and immoral beliefs come directly from the Bible which is to them the “word of God.” Attacking these “Truths” will put you in league with Satan the ultimate tempter and tester of faith.
I attack lies and liars. Not the truth.
You should be happy when someone attacks Yahweh as then they can show why Satan is less evil than him.
Just show the body count. Oh wait, that might show disrespect for the one who deserves it.
Best to ignore me as you have not earned my respect thanks to you showing respect for evil.
Regards
DL
08 Aug 2018, 1:39 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
When they’re doing something that we can take legal action against, we should do that, but attacking them for their beliefs will have no positive outcome.
Tell that to all the gays whose fighting against the homophobia in religions finally made secular law do the right thing.
Your ilk are a part of the problem and not a part od the solution.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is what you recommend --- yet cannot show how you can show respect for what does not deserve respect.
Regards
DL
Speaking from experience as a feminist who has left a misogynistic, fundamentalist cult, what has to happen is that individuals have to leave of their own accord. No one yelled at me or challenged my beliefs. If they did, I would’ve been scared to leave. The world would’ve seemed more scary. I had doubts and allowed myself to challenge my faith and research the Bible, science, and cults on my own outside of the organization.
It sucks, but it’s really the only way. Numbers in religious groups are going down. It’s going to be a long process, but with things like the internet, people have the opportunity to learn like never before.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 08 Aug 2018, 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
08 Aug 2018, 1:42 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
A lot of people’s distasteful and immoral beliefs come directly from the Bible which is to them the “word of God.” Attacking these “Truths” will put you in league with Satan the ultimate tempter and tester of faith.
I attack lies and liars. Not the truth.
You should be happy when someone attacks Yahweh as then they can show why Satan is less evil than him.
Just show the body count. Oh wait, that might show disrespect for the one who deserves it.
Best to ignore me as you have not earned my respect thanks to you showing respect for evil.
Regards
DL
Yahweh is the most unpleasant character in history. I agree with you there.
Just so you know, people can disagree with each other and still have respect for each other. It’s important to learn how to be respectful when debating because it makes people more apt to listen to you.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
08 Aug 2018, 2:16 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
hobojungle wrote:
In my own experience, I’ve found that a personal relationship with unitive consciousness through meditation is my path. I don’t ascribe to organized religions or their associates. I even hate some humans. But I believe in freedom of religion...until we don’t need freedom of religion anymore. All I can do is model though; I’ve found moralizing less effective.
Yet religions are supposed t0o be all about morals.
Yours might be a good path for you, but if you do not use your insight to try to improve the morality of those whose morals are inferior, you are helping evil grow.
Is that really what you want to do?
Regards
DL
How do I improve the morality of others? Is moralizing an effective means of curbing evil? Or is moralizing an evil unto itself?
08 Aug 2018, 2:22 pm
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
When they’re doing something that we can take legal action against, we should do that, but attacking them for their beliefs will have no positive outcome.
Tell that to all the gays whose fighting against the homophobia in religions finally made secular law do the right thing.
Your ilk are a part of the problem and not a part od the solution.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is what you recommend --- yet cannot show how you can show respect for what does not deserve respect.
Regards
DL
Speaking from experience as a feminist who has left a misogynistic, fundamentalist cult, what has to happen is that individuals have to leave of their own accord. No one yelled at me or challenged my beliefs. If they did, I would’ve been scared to leave. The world would’ve seemed more scary. I had doubts and allowed myself to challenge my faith and research the Bible, science, and cults on my own outside of the organization.
It sucks, but it’s really the only way. Numbers in religious groups are going down. It’s going to be a long process, but with things like the internet, people have the opportunity to learn like never before.
True and they should be learning not to respect what does not deserve it.
Imagine the harm reduction we would have enjoyed in the past if all the good people just called evil evil instead of showing evil and those who do it respect like you wish to do.
Do you have a case where you succeeded in converting a theist to bolster you way of thinking?
I doubt it but had to ask. Link please if you have a positive example to show us.
Regards
DL
08 Aug 2018, 2:27 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
When they’re doing something that we can take legal action against, we should do that, but attacking them for their beliefs will have no positive outcome.
Tell that to all the gays whose fighting against the homophobia in religions finally made secular law do the right thing.
Your ilk are a part of the problem and not a part od the solution.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is what you recommend --- yet cannot show how you can show respect for what does not deserve respect.
Regards
DL
Speaking from experience as a feminist who has left a misogynistic, fundamentalist cult, what has to happen is that individuals have to leave of their own accord. No one yelled at me or challenged my beliefs. If they did, I would’ve been scared to leave. The world would’ve seemed more scary. I had doubts and allowed myself to challenge my faith and research the Bible, science, and cults on my own outside of the organization.
It sucks, but it’s really the only way. Numbers in religious groups are going down. It’s going to be a long process, but with things like the internet, people have the opportunity to learn like never before.
True and they should be learning not to respect what does not deserve it.
Imagine the harm reduction we would have enjoyed in the past if all the good people just called evil evil instead of showing evil and those who do it respect like you wish to do.
Do you have a case where you succeeded in converting a theist to bolster you way of thinking?
I doubt it but had to ask. Link please if you have a positive example to show us.
Regards
DL
My brother left, in part, because of me. We’re currently working on our parents.
Who all have you convinced by being rude and confrontational?
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
08 Aug 2018, 2:29 pm
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
A lot of people’s distasteful and immoral beliefs come directly from the Bible which is to them the “word of God.” Attacking these “Truths” will put you in league with Satan the ultimate tempter and tester of faith.
I attack lies and liars. Not the truth.
You should be happy when someone attacks Yahweh as then they can show why Satan is less evil than him.
Just show the body count. Oh wait, that might show disrespect for the one who deserves it.
Best to ignore me as you have not earned my respect thanks to you showing respect for evil.
Regards
DL
Yahweh is the most unpleasant character in history. I agree with you there.
Just so you know, people can disagree with each other and still have respect for each other. It’s important to learn how to be respectful when debating because it makes people more apt to listen to you.
Some issues do have a middle point but as Jesus said, be hot or cold.
Sitting on the fence shows immaturity or the failure to bring an issue to it's ultimate good or evil label.
Our morals seem to be close but you forget the intransigency of the religious from the get go. Come soft to them and they will try to take advantage.
If a decent discussion were possible with the religious, then words like Inquisition and Jihad might not exist.
They do because Christianity and Islam have no moral arguments to give and so just resort to the violence that religions are renowned for. Bastards.
Regards
DL
Last edited by GnosticBishop on 08 Aug 2018, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
08 Aug 2018, 2:34 pm
hobojungle wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
hobojungle wrote:
In my own experience, I’ve found that a personal relationship with unitive consciousness through meditation is my path. I don’t ascribe to organized religions or their associates. I even hate some humans. But I believe in freedom of religion...until we don’t need freedom of religion anymore. All I can do is model though; I’ve found moralizing less effective.
Yet religions are supposed t0o be all about morals.
Yours might be a good path for you, but if you do not use your insight to try to improve the morality of those whose morals are inferior, you are helping evil grow.
Is that really what you want to do?
Regards
DL
How do I improve the morality of others? Is moralizing an effective means of curbing evil? Or is moralizing an evil unto itself?
If evil, then religions are definitely evil.
if good, then we should all do it.
Scriptures say it is good and urges us to correct poor theistic thinking when we see it.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Imagine how we would still be in the trees and cavbes if good people had not corrected poor thinking. Quite an ugly view eh?
Regards
DL
08 Aug 2018, 2:37 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
A lot of people’s distasteful and immoral beliefs come directly from the Bible which is to them the “word of God.” Attacking these “Truths” will put you in league with Satan the ultimate tempter and tester of faith.
I attack lies and liars. Not the truth.
You should be happy when someone attacks Yahweh as then they can show why Satan is less evil than him.
Just show the body count. Oh wait, that might show disrespect for the one who deserves it.
Best to ignore me as you have not earned my respect thanks to you showing respect for evil.
Regards
DL
Yahweh is the most unpleasant character in history. I agree with you there.
Just so you know, people can disagree with each other and still have respect for each other. It’s important to learn how to be respectful when debating because it makes people more apt to listen to you.
Some issues do have a middle point but as Jesus said, be hot or cold.
Sitting on the fence shows immaturity or the failure to bring an issue to it's ultimate good or evil label.
Our morals seem to be close but you forget the intransigency of the religious from the get go. Come soft to them and they will try to take advantage.
If a decent discussion were possible with the religious, then words like Inquisition and Jihad might not exist.
They do because Christianity and Islam have no moral arguments to give and so just resort to the violence that religions are renowned for. Bastards.
Regards
DL
Regards
DL
Thankfully, most religious people today don’t get involved with things like the Inquisition or the Jihad. LOL
Listen: It sounds like you’ve had some very bad experiences with religion. I certainly have, and it’s severely complicated my life, but you can’t let it make you bitter. There’s lots of good out there.
I know lots of happy people that belong to liberal churches where women and gay people are respected.
I’ve used my experiences to be more openminded and accepting of a variety of people. I’d like to get involved in LGBT and women’s rights as well. It’s a positive way of fighting back.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
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