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beneficii
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09 Nov 2018, 10:38 pm

This is ridiculous what Pelosi said here:

https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-d ... in-1205769

If you have strong evidence Trump committed a crime, you need to do the right thing and impeach him. To do otherwise is to set a very bad precedent that tells future Presidential contenders that they can commit as many crimes as they want and not have to worry about facing the consequences, provided they win. Like, do we want to live under such a corrupt system?

If the House refuses to impeach regardless of what evidence there is, then our government will become hopelessly corrupt. In my view, we'd might as well break up the country and have 50 independent countries in its place, because at least the state capitols would be closer to their peoples who'd demand accountability for criminal activity by their leaders.

And it's looking like, here, that Trump was indeed involved in illegal hush money payments, though of course, he's innocent until proven guilty:


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Piobaire
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10 Nov 2018, 7:25 am

A cogent argument in opposition to impeachment; President Mike Pence.

Trump's an incurious, semi-literate, know-nothing who hasn't an 8th grader's grasp of important issues, reacting exclusively from ignorance, greed, and hatred. While that's generally pretty consonant with the GOP, he's also utterly narcissistic, impulsive, vindictive and brutal, with no loyalty to anyone but himself. Everyone in Congress knows that if a collaboration goes well, Trump will claim all the credit while denigrating his collaborators. If things go badly, Trump would have them executed at the drop of a hat if it was within his power, but since it's not (yet), he'd do his utmost to destroy them by other means. There's no real up-side to working with him.
Pence, on the other hand, is better educated, arguably smarter, and vastly more skilled and experienced in collaborating with legislature. He's also American Taliban; a Dominionist who would like nothing better than to replace our constitutional republic with a biblically-based Christian theocracy and replace the Bill of Rights with the book of Leviticus. He demonstrably has the requisite skills (which Trump hasn't) to advance a political agenda, and a fundamentalist cabal (including the 'Freedom Caucus') which would happily play handmaiden.

One way or the other, America's f****d.

Possibly the best way to limit the damage might be to keep Trump in place, and hamstring the hell out of him precisely like the GOP did to Obama but for utterly different reasons. They did it largely because of their rage at having an uppity Negro in the 'White' House; we'd do it to save the republic.

First order of business should be appointing Mueller as independent counsel, and give him a very long leash.



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10 Nov 2018, 10:21 am

Piobaire wrote:

Possibly the best way to limit the damage might be to keep Trump in place, and hamstring the hell out of him precisely like the GOP did to Obama but for utterly different reasons. They did it largely because of their rage at having an uppity Negro in the 'White' House; we'd do it to save the republic.

First order of business should be appointing Mueller as independent counsel, and give him a very long leash.


This is correct and explains why impeachment must unfortunately be out of the equation. Once articles of impeachment are filed, the Senate convenes the trial which requires a 2/3 majority for conviction and then readily acquits Trump, it's game over. Whereas each successive investigation is likely to lead to the exposure of new crimes and more details about the previous ones.

The House has another option as well: censure. This was used to great good effect by the Senate against Joseph McCarthy. Censure doesn't have any particular consequence other than to say that "we disassociate ourselves from you", but it has a powerful political effect anyway. Once adopted, people can cite the censureship resolution against the target whenever the motormouth begins to run. Censure discredited and sidelined McCarthy, effectively ending his reign of terror. The House could also issue separate censureship resolutions against Trump for each of his many offenses, keeping Trump on the defensive every time the motormouth says or does something that's illegal, outrageous or both.

Following is the text of the McCarthy censureship resolution. Note the specifics of McCarthy's numerous lies that brought this about and how they correlate to Trump's behavior.

Quote:
Resolved, That the Senator from Wisconsin, Mr. McCarthy, failed to cooperate with the Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections of the Senate Committee on Rules and Administration in clearing up matters referred to that subcommittee which concerned his conduct as a Senator and affected the honor of the Senate and, instead, repeatedly abused the subcommittee and its members who were trying to carry out assigned duties, thereby obstructing the constitutional processes of the Senate, and that this conduct of the Senator from Wisconsin, Mr. McCarthy, is contrary to senatorial traditions and is hereby condemned.

Sec 2. The Senator from Wisconsin, Mr. McCarthy, in writing to the chairman of the Select Committee to Study Censure Charges (Mr. Watkins) after the Select Committee had issued its report and before the report was presented to the Senate charging three members of the Select Committee with "deliberate deception" and "fraud" for failure to disqualify themselves; in stating to the press on November 4, 1954, that the special Senate session that was to begin November 8, 1954, was a "lynch-party"; in repeatedly describing this special Senate session as a "lynch bee" in a nationwide television and radio show on November 7, 1954; in stating to the public press on November 13, 1954, that the chairman of the Select Committee (Mr. Watkins) was guilty of "the most unusual, most cowardly things I've ever heard of" and stating further: "I expected he would be afraid to answer the questions, but didn't think he'd be stupid enough to make a public statement"; and in characterizing the said committee as the "unwitting handmaiden," "involuntary agent" and "attorneys-in-fact" of the Communist Party and in charging that the said committee in writing its report "imitated Communist methods -- that it distorted, misrepresented, and omitted in its effort to manufacture a plausible rationalization" in support of its recommendations to the Senate, which characterizations and charges were contained in a statement released to the press and inserted in the Congressional Record of November 10, 1954, acted contrary to senatorial ethics and tended to bring the Senate into dishonor and disrepute, to obstruct the constitutional processes of the Senate, and to impair its dignity; and such conduct is hereby condemned.



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10 Nov 2018, 10:28 am

Piobaire wrote:
A cogent argument in opposition to impeachment; President Mike Pence.

Impeachment doesn't mean Trump is removed.


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10 Nov 2018, 10:37 am

By now, after hearing 10,000 negative stories about "teflon DON" Trump, does anyone care about 10,001th?

Democrats are the "Boy who cried Wolf" ....no once cares when they actually find a wrong doing.

Image


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Piobaire
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10 Nov 2018, 11:25 am

While you might be perfectly happy being ruled by the most corrupt, mendacious, and Fascistic minority president in history, don't assume that everyone is.
Donald Trump is indisputably the worst president in American history



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10 Nov 2018, 5:26 pm

Um...correct me if I'm misinformed, but I didn't get the sense from reading the OP article that impeachment is completely off the table. I get the sense that Pelosi wants sufficient evidence of wrongdoing before tilting at that angle, rather than simply hitting the impeach button just because the Democrats are in control now. The orange goblin king could very well be impeached, but it makes sense for the Democrats to take their time with that, watch the idiot squirm for a while, and make that judgment after much consideration. Not only does that look more professional, but although the Democrats will be accused of a biased judgment by Donald's fanbase regardless, it will look so much better for them from a re-election standpoint if it doesn't look like a hasty decision. They're going to throw the gates wide open for the Mueller investigation at least, and will take note of any evidence that turns up.



beneficii
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10 Nov 2018, 6:38 pm

Tross wrote:
Um...correct me if I'm misinformed, but I didn't get the sense from reading the OP article that impeachment is completely off the table. I get the sense that Pelosi wants sufficient evidence of wrongdoing before tilting at that angle, rather than simply hitting the impeach button just because the Democrats are in control now. The orange goblin king could very well be impeached, but it makes sense for the Democrats to take their time with that, watch the idiot squirm for a while, and make that judgment after much consideration. Not only does that look more professional, but although the Democrats will be accused of a biased judgment by Donald's fanbase regardless, it will look so much better for them from a re-election standpoint if it doesn't look like a hasty decision. They're going to throw the gates wide open for the Mueller investigation at least, and will take note of any evidence that turns up.


It would be completely reasonable, if that's what she said. What she actually said is she would wait for approval from Republicans before taking any action, and that is unreasonable. If she has evidence he committed a crime she should move to impeach. If the Republicans in the Senate refuse to convict, then the Democrats can go back to the people with their evidence and say the Republicans are defending clearly criminal behavior.


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Tross
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10 Nov 2018, 9:00 pm

beneficii wrote:
Tross wrote:
Um...correct me if I'm misinformed, but I didn't get the sense from reading the OP article that impeachment is completely off the table. I get the sense that Pelosi wants sufficient evidence of wrongdoing before tilting at that angle, rather than simply hitting the impeach button just because the Democrats are in control now. The orange goblin king could very well be impeached, but it makes sense for the Democrats to take their time with that, watch the idiot squirm for a while, and make that judgment after much consideration. Not only does that look more professional, but although the Democrats will be accused of a biased judgment by Donald's fanbase regardless, it will look so much better for them from a re-election standpoint if it doesn't look like a hasty decision. They're going to throw the gates wide open for the Mueller investigation at least, and will take note of any evidence that turns up.


It would be completely reasonable, if that's what she said. What she actually said is she would wait for approval from Republicans before taking any action, and that is unreasonable. If she has evidence he committed a crime she should move to impeach. If the Republicans in the Senate refuse to convict, then the Democrats can go back to the people with their evidence and say the Republicans are defending clearly criminal behavior.
Is that so? Hmmm...maybe we can hope she would take action if she had actual evidence of a crime. It doesn't sound like she believes there is ground to impeach Donald as it currently stands. If she hears of evidence of something most egregious, it is her responsibility to act accordingly. Perhaps she will consult the Republicans if it's a trivial matter worth a slap on the wrist, but here's hoping she will put her responsibility first if she hears of something along the lines of selling out the US to Russia. Only time will tell how things pan out. At least the Mueller investigation will continue, so it's unlikely she's completely closed-minded.



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10 Nov 2018, 9:25 pm

beneficii wrote:
This is ridiculous what Pelosi said here:

https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-d ... in-1205769

If you have strong evidence Trump committed a crime, you need to do the right thing and impeach him. To do otherwise is to set a very bad precedent that tells future Presidential contenders that they can commit as many crimes as they want and not have to worry about facing the consequences, provided they win. Like, do we want to live under such a corrupt system?

If the House refuses to impeach regardless of what evidence there is, then our government will become hopelessly corrupt. In my view, we'd might as well break up the country and have 50 independent countries in its place, because at least the state capitols would be closer to their peoples who'd demand accountability for criminal activity by their leaders.

And it's looking like, here, that Trump was indeed involved in illegal hush money payments, though of course, he's innocent until proven guilty:



In case you haven't noticed our government is already hopelessly corrupt. We live in the kind of society where the rich take advantage of the poor all the time and they can get away with almost anything because of the fact that they are rich.

We really are f****d as a country now. But I think we pretty much brought it on ourselves. We'll just have to wait and see how bad things really get.



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10 Nov 2018, 11:00 pm

America is a strange debt culture

Presently, about 2.2 million student loan borrowers have $100,000+ of student loan debt @ like 6% interest
Mortgages are commonly 30 years long
Car loans are given at 96 month terms now ! !! (how long before see 108 month car loans)?

Either this collapses, and resets, or many young people are gonna be clawing their way up all their lives.

People are saying: DEBT SLAVERY IS THE NEW ECONOMY.


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TW1ZTY
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11 Nov 2018, 1:10 am

Who really deserves most of the blame? Donald Trump or the Trumpets who continue to vote for him and support all his bullshit?

I think just the fact that a good chunk of the American people either love his amorality and bigotry or deny that he's any of those things and are always defending him says more about us as a people than it does about him. It's our people who voted him into power. It's not like he's a monarch who inherited that right. I guess maybe a lot of Americans are greedy narcissistic assholes too and that's why so many of them love the guy. :roll:



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11 Nov 2018, 5:36 am

Pursuing impeachment would be electoral suicide for the Democrats



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11 Nov 2018, 10:52 am

TW1ZTY wrote:
Who really deserves most of the blame? Donald Trump or the Trumpets who continue to vote for him and support all his bullshit?

I think just the fact that a good chunk of the American people either love his amorality and bigotry or deny that he's any of those things and are always defending him says more about us as a people than it does about him. It's our people who voted him into power. It's not like he's a monarch who inherited that right. I guess maybe a lot of Americans are greedy narcissistic assholes too and that's why so many of them love the guy. :roll:

Donald Trump is not amoral. An axe is amoral. A gun is amoral. A wolf is amoral. Donald Trump has a sense of right and wrong. He could be argued to be immoral.



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11 Nov 2018, 11:05 am

1stSauce wrote:
Pursuing impeachment would be electoral suicide for the Democrats

I disagree. Everyone who hates Donald will still vote how they were planning to, and the Democrats would probably get praised for that move. Also, it really depends on how they go about it. If they just impeach him now because they can, that won't look very professional, but if they do it after evidence of wrongdoing has been uncovered, they will have reasons behind their decision.