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thinkinginpictures
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20 Aug 2018, 7:45 am

Free Will is an illusion. So says science. But people refuse to believe it.

Whenever I discuss this stuff, and say we have no free will, people turn angry and aggressive against me. Why?

Sources:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 08181.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -illusion/

Quote:
Humans are convinced that they make conscious choices as they live their lives. But instead it may be that the brain just convinces itself that it made a free choice from the available options after the decision is made.

The idea was tested out by tricking subjects into believing that they had made a choice before the consequences of that choice could actually be seen. In the test, people were made to believe that they had taken a decision using free will – even though that was impossible.

...

In one of the studies undertaken by Adam Bear and Paul Bloom, of Yale University, the test subjects were shown five white circles on a computer monitor. They were told to choose one of the circles before one of them lit up red.

The participants were then asked to describe whether they’d picked the correct circle, another one, or if they hadn’t had time to actually pick one.

Statistically, people should have picked the right circle about one out of every five times. But they reported getting it right much more than 20 per cent of the time, going over 30 per cent if the circle turned red very quickly.

The scientists suggest that the findings show that the test subjects’ minds were swapping around the order of events, so that it appeared that they had chosen the right circle – even if they hadn’t actually had time to do so.



Fnord
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20 Aug 2018, 8:16 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Whenever I discuss this stuff, and say we have no free will, people turn angry and aggressive against me. Why?
Because they have no choice.

If the "No Free Will" meme is true, then you should simply accept their actions as inevitable, and not the fault of any volition on their part. No need to get all excited over someone disagreeing with you, either; it was meant to be.


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thinkinginpictures
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20 Aug 2018, 8:35 am

Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Whenever I discuss this stuff, and say we have no free will, people turn angry and aggressive against me. Why?
Because they have no choice.

If the "No Free Will" meme is true, then you should simply accept their actions as inevitable, and not the fault of any volition on their part. No need to get all excited over someone disagreeing with you, either; it was meant to be.


Even though their will to disagree with me was not free, it was their will anyway. They feel good about it.

Also, even though you and all your actions are determined by history, you are still part of history yourself.



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 20 Aug 2018, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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20 Aug 2018, 8:37 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Whenever I discuss this stuff, and say we have no free will, people turn angry and aggressive against me. Why?
Because they have no choice. If the "No Free Will" meme is true, then you should simply accept their actions as inevitable, and not the fault of any volition on their part. No need to get all excited over someone disagreeing with you, either; it was meant to be.
Even though their will to disagree with me was not free, it was still their will. They feel good about it anyway.
So?
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Also, even though you and all your actions are determined by history, you are still part of history yourself.
Obvious.


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purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis.”

— Leonard Nimoy as Mr. Spock, in the Star Trek
episode "The Mark of Gideon" (ep. 3-16, 1969)


thinkinginpictures
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20 Aug 2018, 8:39 am

Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Whenever I discuss this stuff, and say we have no free will, people turn angry and aggressive against me. Why?
Because they have no choice. If the "No Free Will" meme is true, then you should simply accept their actions as inevitable, and not the fault of any volition on their part. No need to get all excited over someone disagreeing with you, either; it was meant to be.
Even though their will to disagree with me was not free, it was still their will. They feel good about it anyway.
So?
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Also, even though you and all your actions are determined by history, you are still part of history yourself.
Obvious.


It means you can still influence each other's decision making and thoughts about various issues.



aghogday
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20 Aug 2018, 5:22 pm

First of all, from what you Report as Fact that other People
Get Mad for You Report an Opposing Opinion that Based on Your
Understanding of the Science of Free Will, in Study of Reaction Times
that don't meet our Verbal Thinking of what we are actually doing or
Memory that is incorrect in Subjective way of what Button we
just pushed if we Have a Bias involved
of wanting to be in the top of
the Bell Curve of making
the Correct Decision
as Culturally
Influenced it seems clear
to me now that those who you discuss this
issue with; they have Relatively Speaking little
Mastery in Regulating their Emotions and
Integrating Senses in having a Spock-like
Logical Discussion with you without getting
Bent out of Shape; as i sure don't let differences
of opinions raise my Blood Pressure for i've already
done a Meditation In Moving Free Style Dance where i can
and will count on the Fact that after doing this Bio-Feedback
in Regulating Emotions and Senses for Close to 10K Miles in
Public for Close to Five Years; I will be as Cool as James Bond
when it comes
to discussing
a Very other wise
Emotional Topic; kinda like
at Catholic Church Yesterday
when the Deacon didn't Like it and started pointing Fingers in Non-Verbal Language;
when i said we have no idea if Jesus was really Married or not as Yeshua for there is no
Written Record until the Greek Writing Romans started that bit after 4 Decades or so of Oral Tradition.

Lord that was a Long Sentence and not written like so-called 'normal' People with less Relative Free Will to move beyond
the Current Boundaries of Group think; so, I can and will conform with my Relative Free Will and move further away from
"Transient Hypo-Frontality" and start really pre-planning what I do for the Future Key Strokes and Words that come
all the way across the page in shorter Sentences starting now. It's true, no one can and will Program a Computer
to do all of the Creativity I do for I'm in the Zone, the Flow; yes, the "Transient Hypo-Frontality" where Logic
from the limits of the Neo-Cortex is often washed over by the Flow of A Subconscious Orchestra
and Symphony of Mind Rising up to do much Greater Human Potential in Flow as people
who are experts in the 'Relative Free Will' of Flow do agree when it comes to results
in life that are much more Originally Creative than what has been and is done before.

And just to think these are Words of Song in Flow; and i am so much more than just
that in a Free Style Mode of Dance where Emotions And Senses from Head to toe become
one with the Rest of Nature as such in Ocean Whole Wave Flow where Words don't Count at all
in Terms of Verbal thought other than the After thought words always are as Emotions and Senses
come First. So, Science Proves we are more than Verbal think and Emotions and Senses comes First Before
Words; that's 'Old School' too as Eastern Philosophies identify this so-called Illusion that we are our thoughts Centuries
Before the instruments of Science come to Confirm that Observance of Life. And Lord Knows, if we did have Absolute
Free Will and didn't wanna Live any more, giving up as Weaker Beings of Life; we could just with Words say Stop Heart
now and die that's it, I don't wanna live now. And true after experiencing Type Two Trigeminal Neuralgia for 66 months
from wake to sleep like Dentist Drill in right eye and ear without Novocaine as the assessed Worst Pain known to
Humankind Still; I dam sure wouldn't have been A So Called Tough Dude then And ended all that Tortuous Pain
and Suffering just with a Word to my Heart That's enough stop now. However, it's worth noting in
Scientific Study too that the Nocebo Effect opposite from the Placebo Effect is just as
Dangerous in Negative Thoughts Housing Negative Emotions and Senses as
Essence even to the point of Bringing a much Earlier Demise through Illness eventually;
just not immediately like saying Heart Beat Stop now; yes, through the eyes of Nature is kinder
than giving us that much Free Will now in terms of how Humans overall Feel and Sense about Life now
in either Positive or Negative ways of how they come to View life now. People have Written so many Philosophical
Texts on whether Life is Free Will or Determined or a Mix of that 'tween. Obviously, Life is as a Spectrum of Similarities
and Differences and this is surely one Semantic Issue at least that is not going to be resolved as Absolutely No
Free Will based on a couple of Simple Science Experiments; where even Astro-Physicists Will not Rule out
that all of Existence We Experience is a Construct of a Hologram Designed by some Advanced Being
(i.e. God or whatever you wanna name that now). Neuroscientists, also readily admit they do not fully
Understand by Far what Makes Human Consciousness even a reality now; and Basically we all co-Create
our Conscious Realities through a Very Complex Underlying Subconscious Reality as we basically Hallucinate
it as we go based on what we experience before. So in this way we have the Relative Free Will of Hallucinating
our Reality with our Subconscious Mind and the Fact is through Bio-Feed Back, Tibetan Monks who have truly
Spent lots of time off of Screens and other Logical Neo-Cortical Limited Standard IQ thoughts; Master their
Brain Waves from Beta to Alpha to Theta and their Blood Pressure and Heart Rate and even their
Body Temperature too. True, not everyone and hardly anyone in Western Culture has that much
Relative Free will now; And in Mastering the Regulation of their Emotions and Integration of their
Senses through Methods of Mediation through Yoga through Moving Mediation too like Tai-Chi too.
In other words, there is a lot more to Relative Free Will than Words now as Words are very useful as Guideposts
in Forms of Abstract Constructs, we co-create and associate as Memories of Emotions and Senses Helping us
to Heal and Strive for more Happiness together too to mutually and hopefully consensually Share what works
in Life for us; and what does not as Mileage and Make of Human Being in Nurture and Nature is similar and
Different too among individuals and groups too. This analysis and really small analysis of the Issue in Words
of Both Science and Art is just a Tip of the Iceberg in how complex the Issue of Free Will is in all the
Relative Ways it is real as far as how we Master Life Successfully in Self Actualization in one Lifetime
or do not.

'One thing' for sure is; if we specialize in only one area of Life; not likely we 'will' 'Do it' All More Now.

In other Words, if we only Sing and don't Dance. It's really as simple as that too;
particularly, if we don't even Sing; and Just Talk and Write; or in some cases just
do one; or neither Talk or Write; and only think to ourselves; as Relative Free Will is only as
Large in Reality of the Will We Actually Do Co-Create and Make as our Real Play of Life now.

Some folks have less relative free will; some folks have more; and folks who get mad over
A Different Opinion have the least that I see for now for that is how we grow from Different Opinions;
And Co-Creating our own Dances and Songs of Life that Work for us in Relative Free Wills of Real; A Play of Life Ours.


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Last edited by aghogday on 20 Aug 2018, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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20 Aug 2018, 5:28 pm

Obviously, there is no such thing as "total free will."

But...at least for many people in "First World" countries, there is considerable free will.

It's irritating when people think in absolutes---like just because there isn't "total free will" means there is absolutely NO free will.



Spooky_Mulder
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20 Aug 2018, 5:31 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Obviously, there is no such thing as "total free will."

But...at least for many people in "First World" countries, there is considerable free will.

It's irritating when people think in absolutes---like just because there isn't "total free will" means there is absolutely NO free will.


Agreed.

To use a simplistic and funny example -

Free Will as loosely stated is “I am hungry for chicken fingers right now, so I’ll eat chicken fingers!” Extreme “no free will” would be “I am hungry for chicken fingers right now, but I’m not free/allowed to eat them so I have to eat something else instead.” This can be applied to many things.

Rather than “no free will” I believe you mean “no institutional free will.” Unless you mean the philosophy of determinism which is controversial among philosophers and scientists.



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20 Aug 2018, 5:46 pm

What even is the meaning of "will" beyond a social construct? What is the meaning of "free"? Not only is there no free will, but the concept of free will does not exist outside of human thought.


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kraftiekortie
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20 Aug 2018, 5:59 pm

While "free will" might be a "social construct," I find that it is applicable.

Especially when one wakes up, and realizes one doesn't have to go out to work that day; rather, they can watch TV instead. I find that to be most applicable to the concept of "free will."



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20 Aug 2018, 10:35 pm

People have free will, it just isn't full control over themselves. If Freud or Jung are to be believed, there are many aspects in our mind and personality that are entirely out of our control. For example, sexual desire is not a conscious decision; it just is.

That being said, this isn't oppositional to free will as that is not actually a very well defined principle. Implications of fate and theism abound.



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20 Aug 2018, 10:55 pm

from a legalistic standpoint, freedom isn't a gradient but more like a binary function- you are either free [IOW totally free of any earthy restriction, including from want of necessary resources conditional for freedom to be practically realized] or not free, there is a word coinage issue here, the closest English can get to the goal is relatively free or freer/less free/less restricted- but to me this is less than satisfactory. with this in mind, partially free feels like partially pregnant, you have at least some of your volitions at the mercy of the earthly fates. for all we know, even that which is commonly known as "God" or "all that is," may be subject to higher echelons of this restriction on volition. somebody please come up with better words to describe this nether condition. just my opinion, YMMV.



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21 Aug 2018, 12:36 am

These findings fit with a larger literature that shows that most people believe they are above average (which of course statistically cannot be possible). There are other studies demonstrating that a key part of a normal, healthy psyche is having a moderately optimistic assessment of one’s own abilities and accomplishments. It is what gives us a sense of control over our lives. Those who lack this optimistic bias are more likely to be depressed.



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21 Aug 2018, 12:47 am

I read somewhere that depressed people [IOW people who reported that they were depressed] actually had a more accurate picture of their life powers as well as in their relationship with their world, than people who reported themselves as being happy.



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21 Aug 2018, 2:02 am

^ Aah, depressive realism, I've read a bit about that too, it's still quite controversial but it feels right to me; I suspect I have a rather chronic case of it! Whether the realism brings about the depression, or the depression the realism, is another matter; I suspect probably a bit of both in one of life's infuriating positive-feedback loops.

My attitude to free-will has definitely been coloured by my executive functioning problems, I think. The breakdowns in the connection between what I (believe I?) decide to do and what I actually do have really shaken me at times. I got me thinking from quite an early age about how autonomous I really was if I my brain could do that to me. If, as suggested, free-will is really just an illusion that our sub-conscious uses to deceive our ego, then this kind of executive function problems would be impairments in generating or perceiving the illusion. I'm not saying I believe this idea is right; it's just a connection that occurred to me after reading though the thread. I don't believe that the subject will ever stop fascinating me, and I find the research really interesting.

The illusion is now telling me that I decided to engage in a debate questioning the veracity of the same illusion, which is also the true source of the decision that I should be made to feel that I'm questioning the illusion; it then formulated a hypothesis about itself and made me think that I'd decided to write it down - with recursion like that, it'll keep my brain busy forever! :wink:


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Last edited by Trogluddite on 21 Aug 2018, 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.