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KT67
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06 Jun 2020, 5:59 am

I've come across this every time I engage with abolitionist narrative.

They don't provide good alternatives to murder/violence/rape.

Part of this might be because they're mostly American. I can see wanting to take the law into your own hands if the alternative is the death penalty. Either way the killer ends up dead.

But the way I see it, these things will realistically be ended in two ways. (Another) murder/beating. Or prison.

Prison is better than violence.

Nobody is advocating ways we can punish those who have done that kind of stuff while keeping everyone alive and not having a prison/police system. And I'm sorry but if someone kills someone or beats someone up or rapes someone, they need to be punished. Someone who does that kind of thing is likely to do it again unless they have consequences for their actions.

Closest I've seen is 'well we socially ostracise them'. So what? Autistic people get socially ostracised just for being ourselves, you cancel people if they say one thing wrong. Violence requires a greater punishment than saying something wrong does.



naturalplastic
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06 Jun 2020, 6:28 am

"Abolitionists"?

Do you mean "folks who want to abolish all police departments"? In the wake of George Floyd's death?

That is indeed an unrealistic solution.

I guess that we need someone to...police the police.

And …

Someone to police the folks who police the police. :lol:

And

Someone else to police the folks who police, the police, of the police.

And....



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06 Jun 2020, 6:32 am

Agree. There should be spokespeople during all this who suggest alternatives. More than one for each thing they want to change.

I also get tired of the lack of practical dialog about theft and drug crime. I grew up with a drug addicted mom, and that was no fun at all. And a few years ago someone stole my husbands car from the front of our house. They crawled over our baby’s car seat to get through. It was recovered a day later missing all the tools and full of canned dr peppers and menthol cigarettes.

Does no one remember Bosnia a few years ago? We don’t need a lawless land where it’s everybody against each other trying to survive.



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06 Jun 2020, 6:40 am

Governor Cuomo, of New York, spoke up about a need for special prosecutors in cases where cops kill people.



vermontsavant
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06 Jun 2020, 6:56 am

Maybe I'm stupid and not hip to millennial lingo but I always thought abolitionists were people who were against slavery.What is meant by abolitionist here,even Mauritania has banned slavery,so I doubt this i about slavery


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KT67
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06 Jun 2020, 6:57 am

SocOfAutism wrote:
Agree. There should be spokespeople during all this who suggest alternatives. More than one for each thing they want to change.

I also get tired of the lack of practical dialog about theft and drug crime. I grew up with a drug addicted mom, and that was no fun at all. And a few years ago someone stole my husbands car from the front of our house. They crawled over our baby’s car seat to get through. It was recovered a day later missing all the tools and full of canned dr peppers and menthol cigarettes.

Does no one remember Bosnia a few years ago? We don’t need a lawless land where it’s everybody against each other trying to survive.


I think the solution with drugs is rehab and getting kids adopted (ideally by family) rather than living with drug addicts. My stepdad's ex's family is very middle class/WASP, they did that with my stepsister and she's clean now. Didn't involve the police at all. I think that's better than sending them off to prison where they might just get MORE access to drugs etc and have a criminal record after so nothing to stay clean for re jobs. The state needs to fund rehab centres & get involved in getting kids rehoused ideally w clean family members cos it's no environment for a child. Treat it as a healthcare issue but one which you can be committed to if you're a danger to yourself/others (which most extreme drug addicts are).

And yeah I mean the abolish the police people.

I think the problem is that America is too police heavy in terms of what gets funded. We have an NHS here and it also deals with mental illness as well as physical. For us that next step of putting drug addicts in hospital wouldn't be much different to putting someone like my dad in hospital for schizophrenia.

And yeah it bothers me that modern day police/prison abolitionists use anti slavery language.



naturalplastic
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06 Jun 2020, 7:17 am

vermontsavant wrote:
Maybe I'm stupid and not hip to millennial lingo but I always thought abolitionists were people who were against slavery.What is meant by abolitionist here,even Mauritania has banned slavery,so I doubt this i about slavery

That's what I thought for a moment when I read the title, and the original post.

Like "damn...this girl is in a time warp. She hasn't heard that the Abolitionists already got their way, and already freed the slaves 150 years ago. Lol!".

Young folks on WP will NEVER EVER explain WTF they are talking about in an original post.

Have heard about this "abolishing police" notion on the news- so I had to deduce that was what she prolly meant.



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06 Jun 2020, 7:29 am

I mentioned it in another thread, but Minneapolis might retool their police department to where the police will in effect become a violent crimes unit only and they will not respond to non-violent crimes. It's been proposed by two city council members there that non-violent crimes would be handled by "social workers" and EMTs (Emergency Medical Technicians). So even though Minneapolis wouldn't literally abolish the police department, they might end up changing law enforcement in that city dramatically.


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vermontsavant
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06 Jun 2020, 7:36 am

If you abolished policing you would have anarchy,and then even more Amaud Arbery's would killed by every bubba in Georgia every time a bubba in Georgia want's to kill a black man.


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KT67
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06 Jun 2020, 7:46 am

Magna wrote:
I mentioned it in another thread, but Minneapolis might retool their police department to where the police will in effect become a violent crimes unit only and they will not respond to non-violent crimes. It's been proposed by two city council members there that non-violent crimes would be handled by "social workers" and EMTs (Emergency Medical Technicians). So even though Minneapolis wouldn't literally abolish the police department, they might end up changing law enforcement in that city dramatically.


Yeah, that's my ideal solution tbh.



Magna
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06 Jun 2020, 8:13 am

KT67 wrote:
Magna wrote:
I mentioned it in another thread, but Minneapolis might retool their police department to where the police will in effect become a violent crimes unit only and they will not respond to non-violent crimes. It's been proposed by two city council members there that non-violent crimes would be handled by "social workers" and EMTs (Emergency Medical Technicians). So even though Minneapolis wouldn't literally abolish the police department, they might end up changing law enforcement in that city dramatically.


Yeah, that's my ideal solution tbh.


I want to see Minneapolis' actual plans for how they think this would work. EMTs and social workers already have jobs, whereas the sole role of police is law enforcement. One challenge I can see for non-violent crimes (e.g. theft, vandalism) is reducing the frequency of such crimes using social workers and EMTs.

Example: Neighborhoods in cities will sometimes have a rash of thefts or vandalism. Police have the means, the time and the focus to "stake out" the neighborhoods 24/7 to try to catch the perpetrators in the act. It would be difficult for EMTs in ambulances to "stake out" a neighborhood because everyone knows what an ambulance looks like. Will the new guidelines, if they take effect, require EMTs and social workers to also take on the role of law enforcement or will it be voluntary? Doubtful EMT companies will allow their expensive ambulances to be used for law enforcement and doubtful the city of Minneapolis could commandeer the ambulances by writ.

Many questions on how this would actually work.


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KT67
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06 Jun 2020, 8:59 am

naturalplastic wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Maybe I'm stupid and not hip to millennial lingo but I always thought abolitionists were people who were against slavery.What is meant by abolitionist here,even Mauritania has banned slavery,so I doubt this i about slavery

That's what I thought for a moment when I read the title, and the original post.

Like "damn...this girl is in a time warp. She hasn't heard that the Abolitionists already got their way, and already freed the slaves 150 years ago. Lol!".

Young folks on WP will NEVER EVER explain WTF they are talking about in an original post.

Have heard about this "abolishing police" notion on the news- so I had to deduce that was what she prolly meant.


That's probably more because autistic people have trouble knowing that other people don't know the same things as they know themselves (if that makes sense?) than out of malicious intent.

And I'm half your age so I'll take the 'young people' thing as a compliment :D :lol: 8)

I suspect a lot of those suggesting it are half my age. It's very common to have such radical notions in one's teenage years then realise they need a lot more nuance as you get older/less angry.



naturalplastic
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06 Jun 2020, 9:54 am

I wasn't accusing young people of being malicious. I was accusing them of just being daft, and of not being aware that they are addressing mixed age group, and mixed background, audience, on a site like this. Often in General Autism they will use some acronym (for some medical or psychiatric term that only a specialist would know), and never explain what it means, and just rattle on about it as if we all were just as obsessed with the thing as they are. Maybe its due to being young, or maybe its due to being autistic, or maybe its a combination of both.



KT67
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07 Jun 2020, 3:24 am

Fair enough.

Most people wouldn't consider 32 yos to be "young people" enough to be doing things because of youth though. You learn something new every day (esp socially if you're aspie) and it's good to learn from those who are older.



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07 Jun 2020, 4:04 am

Body Cams?

Police drones?

Police cameras everywhere?

Human microchip implants?

Speeding sensors in cars that automatically detect speeding?

Sensors everywhere that automatically detect infractions of the law?

Demolition Man cussing sensor that identifies you by microchip implant and generates a legal infraction ticket
Image


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07 Jun 2020, 8:13 am

KT67 wrote:
Fair enough.

Most people wouldn't consider 32 yos to be "young people" enough to be doing things because of youth though. You learn something new every day (esp socially if you're aspie) and it's good to learn from those who are older.
32 is pretty young


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