Cultural Relativism and Moral Truth

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19 Apr 2019, 3:09 pm

Just watched a horrible movie about a nazi death camp. They, the prisoners - innocent people - were brutally gassed.
It is a real story. It really did happen - more than 6 million innocent people lost their lives in nazi death camps.

I knew it already, but after watching the movie, I felt a strong urge to say this:

Cultural Relativism is wrong.

Cultural Relativism "teach" that all opinions are equally valid. That is wrong, as is self-evident in the case of National Socialism.

There are some opinions, some beliefs, some points of view - which are just plain wrong.
They are worth less than others. National Socialism is amongst the wrong opinions.

Once you accept that, you know there are certain moral truths which are - true!
I do not know what is right or true, but I do know what is wrong. I believe that if we can sort out all wrong opinions and beliefs, ultimately we will find the right opinions and the right things to believe in. Simply by reducing the number of options.

Another lesson we can draw from this, is that all people who hold negative values - because there exists not only wrong opinions, but harmful wrong opinions - negative values - should not be allowed to exist.

National Socialists are such people. They should not be allowed to exist.

Fnord
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19 Apr 2019, 3:35 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:

... Cultural Relativism is wrong. There are some opinions, some beliefs, some points of view - which are just plain wrong. They are worth less than others ... Once you accept that, you know there are certain moral truths which are true! ... I do not know what is right or true, but I do know what is wrong. I believe that if we can sort out all wrong opinions and beliefs, ultimately we will find the right opinions and the right things to believe in. Simply by reducing the number of options ...

Excellent! The Founding Fathers had a go at this, but were hampered by their need for cheap labor and their desire to maintain the status-quo.

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

All members of the Homo Sapiens species have equal rights, which include the right to Life, the right to Liberty, the right to Pursue Happiness, the right to Speak freely, the right to Write and Publish freely, the right to Free and Unhindered Assembly, the right to exercise Religious Beliefs (or lack thereof), the right to Self-Defense, the right to Vote Freely, the right to Petition Government for Redress of Wrongs, the right to Own Property, the right to Privacy within one's dwelling-place, the right to Legal Representation on government and a court of law, the right to pursue an Education, the right to pursue Gainful Employment, the right to pursue Inter-Personal Relationships, the right to pursue Medical Treatment, and the right to Clean Air, Food, and Water.

All members of the Homo Sapiens species have equal obligations and responsibilities, which include:

Fidelity and Service to Country, Adherence to Law, Respect for the Rights of Others, Peaceful Behavior, Payment of Taxes, and the welfare of one's own children ...

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thinkinginpictures
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19 Apr 2019, 3:41 pm

Fnord wrote:

thinkinginpictures wrote:

Again, I do not know what is right or true, but I do know what is wrong and false.

Quote:

All members of the Homo Sapiens species have equal rights

FALSE. We do not have equal rights. Immigrants do not share the same rights to vote as citizens, for instance.

Also, it would be morally WRONG to give every member of the Homo Sapiens-family tree equal rights.
We are not equals, and we will never be equals.

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19 Apr 2019, 3:45 pm

Okay then ... I'm exercising my right to disagree with what I know is wrong.

You're on your own.

kraftiekortie
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19 Apr 2019, 3:49 pm

Even if we're not "equal," we all have the right to be treated equally when it comes to the law.

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19 Apr 2019, 3:55 pm

Fnord wrote:

The Founding Fathers

The poor founding fathers must be rolling in their graves. If you've ever wondered why slave owners could write such things, it becomes immediately clear when you learn that early drafts of these documents had "Englishmen" in place of "men". They were not writing for all mankind, they were writing for themselves and their oft-mentioned posterity. I often wonder how things would have played out had they not chosen "men". It probably wouldn't have made a difference. The blackguards, conspirators, churls, and fanatics would likely have changed, reinterpreted or memory-holed the documents to suit their wishes anyway.

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thinkinginpictures
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19 Apr 2019, 4:03 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Even if we're not "equal," we all have the right to be treated equally when it comes to the law.

Sure.

Ban National Socialism and the Swastica and any nazi-speeches and expressions of sympathy towards the Hitler-regime, and impose on those who break that law, the death penalty.

Then give anyone charged for being a nazi a fair trial equal to anyone else on trial.

Anyone guilty will be condemned and executed.

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19 Apr 2019, 4:51 pm

Yes, the nazis were awful. They should also remind you that people are not equal by default, and they don't have these rights by default.

We decide whether people are equal and which rights they have.

Currently, there's hundreds of people drowning in the Mediterranean sea every month... They are not equal, they don't have rights.
It's us who are giving these rights to each other.
There's no morally right or wrong that's unquestionable ... There's just a choice what fiction we prefer - the one if racial supremacy, or the one of human rights.
At the moment, we pretend a lot that human rights are real, to cover the fact that we really aren't acting that way...

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kraftiekortie
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19 Apr 2019, 5:22 pm

I’m not talking about Nazis and such. They shouldn’t be treated decently....because they don’t bother to treat others decently .

I’m talking about most people who just want a fair shake in life.

It’s an unequal world when you have people drowning just because they want a better life. Most of these people only want to do well by their families.

thinkinginpictures
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19 Apr 2019, 5:26 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Sorry I misunderstood you then. I agree 100 % with you in this.

shlaifu
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20 Apr 2019, 3:29 am

Pepe wrote:

thinkinginpictures wrote:

The death camps had nothing to do with German culture...
You are embarrassing yourself...

That's not true. I live in Germany.
The death camps were an efficient, modern and technical solution to what they perceived as the problem in their society.
They were designed by architects, in offices, and the logustics were managed by railway employees. Thise weren't monstrous people. They just did their job in a society thst told itself it was the moral and scientific imperative to get rid of another people.
And they did it thegerman way, highly organized and with distributed responsibilty.

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Trueno
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20 Apr 2019, 4:11 am

I find that the existence of Hitler buggers up a lot of arguments.

It's already been pointed out that some of the founding fathers were slave owners.

If you read Thomas More's "Utopia" you will find that his "perfect" society relied upon slave labour. What a POS that was, then.

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thinkinginpictures
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20 Apr 2019, 4:23 am

Pepe wrote:

The death camps had nothing to do with German culture...
You are embarrassing yourself...

I didn't say German. I said nazi. Not German.

Pepe
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20 Apr 2019, 6:25 pm

shlaifu wrote:

You do understand the definition of "culture"?

Quote:

culture noun
cul·ture | \ ˈkəl-chər \
Definition of culture (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group
also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time
popular culture
Southern culture
b : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization
a corporate culture focused on the bottom line
c : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic
studying the effect of computers on print culture
Changing the culture of materialism will take time …
— Peggy O'Mara
d : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations
2a : enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training
b : acquaintance with and taste in fine arts, humanities, and broad aspects of science as distinguished from vocational and technical skills
a person of culture
also : a product of such cultivation
5 : the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education

Racism is not permitted here on WP...

Pepe
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20 Apr 2019, 6:33 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:

Pepe wrote:

The death camps had nothing to do with German culture...
You are embarrassing yourself...

I didn't say German. I said nazi. Not German.

So you are talking about a "baby" feral sub-culture which hijacked the values of the German people through dictatorial intimidation?...

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