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naturalplastic
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01 Jul 2019, 7:00 pm

Not a professional historian, but this Western guy presents some rather persuasive evidence that Islam was not born at the modern site of Mecca, Saudi Arabia, but at a city hundreds of miles to the north at a now ruined city (which happens to be a tourist "mecca" for reasons having nothing to do with Islam). The city of Petra in Jordan.



The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Jul 2019, 1:03 pm

So that would be another reason for the Jordanian king to claim the 'Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques' title.



The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Jul 2019, 2:24 pm

Jordan is where also believed that the Arabic language was born.



kraftiekortie
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02 Jul 2019, 6:02 pm

That's why we have historians.....



shlaifu
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07 Jul 2019, 1:02 pm

This also has zero theoretical consequences, and would probably lead to sectarianism and violence and not much else, in practice.


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naturalplastic
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09 Jul 2019, 6:18 am

shlaifu wrote:
This also has zero theoretical consequences, and would probably lead to sectarianism and violence and not much else, in practice.

Bullshit.

It has a lot of implications for understanding the rise of Islam.

The more you know about geography and history the less sense the conventional narrative of Islam makes any sense. At least it never made much sense to me.

The first three thousand years of middle eastern history took place on a narrow stage: that of modern Iraq,Syria,Lebanon, Judea, and Egypt. From the dawn of Mesopotamina civilizations in 3000 BC, through Biblical times, the Persian Empire, Alexander, Roman, Byzantine times, everything happen in the fertile crescent region of those few countries. Nothing happed way out offstage in the wasteland of southern Arabia.

But according to conventional history: the city of Mecca suddenly became a big trading center far outside of the centers of civilization of late antiquity, and THEN, became the place Mohammed had his revelations, and then Mecca became the religious center. Not impossible, but it doesn feel right.

Then when you study the specifics it makes even less sense. According to both archaeology and to historic references the modern city of Mecca seems to have not even existed prior to Mohammed, and descriptions of Mecca in the Koran don't match Mecca.

This new narrative seems to fit better. Mohammed had his revelaions while working as a merchant in a place that really was an important trading center for merchants- a place only a little bit outside of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire- the city of Petra in modern Jordan. Also Its near Jerusalem, and near Judea, where both and old New Testaments were set. Makes more sense that someone influenced by Jewish ideas (and who declared himself "the seal of the prophets" of the Bible would live next door the land of the Bible, and not a 1000 miles away in south central Arabia.

Then later Islam has a dynastic split, and one factions leaves dodge city (Petra), and purposely picks a new capital precisely because of its remote location (so its hard for the rival dynasty to attack). The new location being 800 miles south on the far side of the Arabian Desert from the ancient centers of mid east civilization in Iraq/Syria/levant.



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09 Jul 2019, 6:30 am

I thougth Mecca is regarded sacred because of the Black Stone - that had been there even before Islam.
Islam composed monotheism (ideas from judaism and non-trinitarian christianity) with pre-existing cult of the stone.
Boo, correct me if I'm wrong - I guess you are the most knowledgeable of us in such matters.


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