Why does the Right stand any chance - at all?

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RushKing
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09 Sep 2019, 6:12 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
When you get to these sorts of pushy people who are willing to destroy anyone (most recent sacrifice being ContraPoints) who isn't pure enough you're no longer dealing with people fighting to get needs met, you're dealing with something closer to a deep wish for revenge on everyone else who isn't exactly like them and even with that done I'm still not sure they'd stop at their own likeness.

Peter Coffin on the ContraPoints fiasco:


https://youtu.be/9Yq2idUP9_g



tensordyne
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10 Sep 2019, 12:28 am

What cyberdad just said for US, plus the entrancement that comes with thinking you can be a king just because you worship one.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/ ... ink-we-are


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10 Sep 2019, 1:44 am

tensordyne wrote:
What cyberdad just said for US, plus the entrancement that comes with thinking you can be a king just because you worship one.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/ ... ink-we-are


I think somebody on another thread made the valid observation that if the majority of Americans are living around minimum wage then why did the republicans attract 46% of popular vote in 2016?

Another interesting one is 62% of college educated white females voted for Trump despite having the capacity to rationalise he's a misogynist with backward views on women?

The reason for the above is core "values". People in America who aspire to be in the wealthy bracket and so use that logic to vote for billionaires to represent their interests....they also tolerate and adopt anti-minority views.



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10 Sep 2019, 2:01 am

As long as people keep looking at it as 'the left' and 'the right' then it will never get solved



Closet Genious
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10 Sep 2019, 2:10 am

Because the right wing speakers often have better stratetic sense, and the way they argue appeal to a lot of people. As a left wing person myself, many of the left wing politicians and public speakers seriously need stop with moral outrage, and just deal with the arguements no matter how offensive they are.



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10 Sep 2019, 10:28 am

cyberdad wrote:
tensordyne wrote:
What cyberdad just said for US, plus the entrancement that comes with thinking you can be a king just because you worship one.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/ ... ink-we-are


I think somebody on another thread made the valid observation that if the majority of Americans are living around minimum wage then why did the republicans attract 46% of popular vote in 2016?


So 4% of all workers make minimum wage or less.
https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-ar ... ge-workers

The median personal income in the US is $31,099. That works out to $14.95/hour which is more than double the federal minimum wage of $7.25. For full-time workers the median income is $865 per week or $21.625 per hour. that is just under triple minimum wage.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_ ... ted_States

So half of all americans make more than double minimum wage, and half of all full-time workers make more than just under triple minimum wage.

So whoever said the majority of Americans made around minimum wage was VERY VERY wrong.


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kraftiekortie
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10 Sep 2019, 10:37 am

It would be, in practical terms, extremely difficult for people to be able to LIVE while making Minimum Wage ($7.25 an hour Federally), for a 40-hour week.

This is especially true in the Northeast, West, and eastern Midwest.



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10 Sep 2019, 11:46 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It would be, in practical terms, extremely difficult for people to be able to LIVE while making Minimum Wage ($7.25 an hour Federally), for a 40-hour week.

This is especially true in the Northeast, West, and eastern Midwest.


Meanwhile, affordable housing is scantly addressed.


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kraftiekortie
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10 Sep 2019, 11:50 am

Yep. That's right.



AngelRho
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10 Sep 2019, 1:03 pm

Ok...given a monthly income of $800, you could possibly find a single bedroom to rent for under $600. Personally, I could stretch $50 for food. The only challenge would be budgeting $150 for electricity and still have running water. A married couple doubling that could live comfortably on min wage with a single vehicle and an $120/month fuel allowance. Bear in mind that a min wage, entry level job is never supposed to be a permanent solution. The expectation is that with experience someone can move up.

Cost of living even on bare essentials is ridiculous, and tax policies/wage policies make it more difficult. An owner can’t possibly expect to make any money if rent exceeds the means of renters. If nobody can afford rent, he can’t stay in business. So if the area is predominantly min wage jobs, guess what rent is going to be?

Without being regulated or legislated to death and with common sense, it’s a self-regulating, competitive cycle. Property owners price renters out, creating a demand for affordable housing with little supply. Smaller owners increase available space, slash rent prices to a fraction of what the big guys want. The big guys start losing renters and either undercut the little guys, buy out the little guys, or are forced sell property once they go broke. Another property owner, big or little, buys out the property, expands, offers more rooms at similar prices, makes more money. And if wages increase, the ability to pay rent increases, the demand is still high with diminishing capacity for housing, owners can raise rent confident that renters can still pay. That in turn creates a housing market that fluctuates depending on the economy. The one constant is that there are options for workers in entry-level positions. Because there’s a government edict that says owners MUST rent to low-income renters and make up for loss with subsidies? No. Because owners can’t make money off low-earners if prices are unreasonable. The more people you can serve in any given market, the greater your profits.

All it takes is one property owner to make a difference. Gentrification has radically changed urban landscapes for the better. No reason why this can’t happen across all income levels. All you have to do is leave it alone and allow it to work.



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10 Sep 2019, 1:58 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Ok...given a monthly income of $800, you could possibly find a single bedroom to rent for under $600. Personally, I could stretch $50 for food. The only challenge would be budgeting $150 for electricity and still have running water. A married couple doubling that could live comfortably on min wage with a single vehicle and an $120/month fuel allowance. Bear in mind that a min wage, entry level job is never supposed to be a permanent solution. The expectation is that with experience someone can move up.

Cost of living even on bare essentials is ridiculous, and tax policies/wage policies make it more difficult. An owner can’t possibly expect to make any money if rent exceeds the means of renters. If nobody can afford rent, he can’t stay in business. So if the area is predominantly min wage jobs, guess what rent is going to be?

Without being regulated or legislated to death and with common sense, it’s a self-regulating, competitive cycle. Property owners price renters out, creating a demand for affordable housing with little supply. Smaller owners increase available space, slash rent prices to a fraction of what the big guys want. The big guys start losing renters and either undercut the little guys, buy out the little guys, or are forced sell property once they go broke. Another property owner, big or little, buys out the property, expands, offers more rooms at similar prices, makes more money. And if wages increase, the ability to pay rent increases, the demand is still high with diminishing capacity for housing, owners can raise rent confident that renters can still pay. That in turn creates a housing market that fluctuates depending on the economy. The one constant is that there are options for workers in entry-level positions. Because there’s a government edict that says owners MUST rent to low-income renters and make up for loss with subsidies? No. Because owners can’t make money off low-earners if prices are unreasonable. The more people you can serve in any given market, the greater your profits.

All it takes is one property owner to make a difference. Gentrification has radically changed urban landscapes for the better. No reason why this can’t happen across all income levels. All you have to do is leave it alone and allow it to work.


Some small corrections I don't disagree thematically with the substance of the post.

Full time minimum wage earnings at 40 hour/ week, 4 weeks/month is $1,160/month not $800.

Rent is HIGHLY area dependent. $600/month will easily get you a one bedroom apartment in Columbia Missouri, or half of a bunk bed in San Francisco California.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/05/success/ ... index.html

One of the reasons Seattle's minimum wage hike has had minimal effects so far is that no employers actually paid the previous minimum wage, because it was too low for the area.


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10 Sep 2019, 9:52 pm

You're focusing on only one small part of the political divide. Money, "poverty" and inequality isn't that high up on people's radar at the moment, despite what you may hear from the reinvigorated "Sanders/Corbyn" left. The great blurry divide is social, moral and cultural, with the nationalist vs globalist argument framing it all. You'd be surprised how many people watch Downton Abbey and envy the servants and farmers et al. as much if not more than the aristocracy.


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11 Sep 2019, 1:50 am

Antrax wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
tensordyne wrote:
What cyberdad just said for US, plus the entrancement that comes with thinking you can be a king just because you worship one.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/ ... ink-we-are


I think somebody on another thread made the valid observation that if the majority of Americans are living around minimum wage then why did the republicans attract 46% of popular vote in 2016?


So 4% of all workers make minimum wage or less.
https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-ar ... ge-workers

The median personal income in the US is $31,099. That works out to $14.95/hour which is more than double the federal minimum wage of $7.25. For full-time workers the median income is $865 per week or $21.625 per hour. that is just under triple minimum wage.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_ ... ted_States

So half of all americans make more than double minimum wage, and half of all full-time workers make more than just under triple minimum wage.

So whoever said the majority of Americans made around minimum wage was VERY VERY wrong.


Point is that plenty of "punters" backing the "wrong horse" down at the electoral race-track...Trump has a rump of poor whites who love him....



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11 Sep 2019, 2:31 pm

Antrax wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Ok...given a monthly income of $800, you could possibly find a single bedroom to rent for under $600. Personally, I could stretch $50 for food. The only challenge would be budgeting $150 for electricity and still have running water. A married couple doubling that could live comfortably on min wage with a single vehicle and an $120/month fuel allowance. Bear in mind that a min wage, entry level job is never supposed to be a permanent solution. The expectation is that with experience someone can move up.

Cost of living even on bare essentials is ridiculous, and tax policies/wage policies make it more difficult. An owner can’t possibly expect to make any money if rent exceeds the means of renters. If nobody can afford rent, he can’t stay in business. So if the area is predominantly min wage jobs, guess what rent is going to be?

Without being regulated or legislated to death and with common sense, it’s a self-regulating, competitive cycle. Property owners price renters out, creating a demand for affordable housing with little supply. Smaller owners increase available space, slash rent prices to a fraction of what the big guys want. The big guys start losing renters and either undercut the little guys, buy out the little guys, or are forced sell property once they go broke. Another property owner, big or little, buys out the property, expands, offers more rooms at similar prices, makes more money. And if wages increase, the ability to pay rent increases, the demand is still high with diminishing capacity for housing, owners can raise rent confident that renters can still pay. That in turn creates a housing market that fluctuates depending on the economy. The one constant is that there are options for workers in entry-level positions. Because there’s a government edict that says owners MUST rent to low-income renters and make up for loss with subsidies? No. Because owners can’t make money off low-earners if prices are unreasonable. The more people you can serve in any given market, the greater your profits.

All it takes is one property owner to make a difference. Gentrification has radically changed urban landscapes for the better. No reason why this can’t happen across all income levels. All you have to do is leave it alone and allow it to work.


Some small corrections I don't disagree thematically with the substance of the post.

Full time minimum wage earnings at 40 hour/ week, 4 weeks/month is $1,160/month not $800.

Rent is HIGHLY area dependent. $600/month will easily get you a one bedroom apartment in Columbia Missouri, or half of a bunk bed in San Francisco California.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/05/success/ ... index.html

One of the reasons Seattle's minimum wage hike has had minimal effects so far is that no employers actually paid the previous minimum wage, because it was too low for the area.

I was low-balling it on monthly wages to account for net pay. In reality, entry level jobs aren’t even full-time, 40 hours. When I worked for McDonald’s,
I remember they’d do anything to keep you from accumulating 40 hours in ANY given week, and I had to work several > 8-hour days.

You can get ahead by being FIRM with employers and explaining WITHOUT EXCEPTION there are only certain specific days/times you will work, with some days being negotiable and some absolutely not. Then you apply for a second job where you put in an extra 4 hours a day plus 8 on weekends. You’ll make 40 hours EASY, your employers never have to worry about overtime, and everyone ends up winning. You may end up making significantly more money that way, which will give you more freedom and options with your car and your apartment. After a year or two you might qualify for a salaried position that includes benefits.

And yeah...you gotta go where the action is. Highest income balanced with cost of living. I can think of worse places to live than Missouri. I don’t mind paying 2k for a NYC apartment as long as I’m making NYC money. Otherwise, forget it. I hear you can’t even live in squalor for less than $5k.



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11 Sep 2019, 4:18 pm

I think what you fail to understand are the people who are both poor and conservative.

There are many reasons for people to be this way.

1. They are socially conservative, and vote for candidates based on social issues as opposed to economic issues, even if said candidates also have conservative economic views.
2. Some believe that, even if they will not become rich, they will have a better opportunity to be wage-earners or self employed under a less financially regulated and centrally managed system.
3. Some are principled, and reject the ideas of wealth redistribution as theft on principle, even if they would personally benefit from some form of wealth redistribution.



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12 Sep 2019, 8:42 am

Fnord wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
... their scorn of anything majority-oriented, that's that winnowing/distilling effect in motion. When you get to these sorts of pushy people who are willing to destroy anyone (most recent sacrifice being ContraPoints) who isn't pure enough you're no longer dealing with people fighting to get needs met, you're dealing with something closer to a deep wish for revenge on everyone else who isn't exactly like them and even with that done I'm still not sure they'd stop at their own likeness...
In other words, “If they’re part of the Majority (i.e., able-bodied, straight, white, et cetera), then they must be of The Right and they’re just trying to infiltrate and usurp our cause.”

Got it.

No more causes (Left or Right) for me.



I'm going to become one of those hated people who has no real loyalties to either side and only sides with whoever benefits ME.

Since I don't benefit from that monster Trump or the stupid Democrats I think I'll vote for somebody like Joe Walsh. He may be a Republican but I actually LIKE him.