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Tim_Tex
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23 Aug 2019, 2:54 pm

Is there a War on Centrists looming?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/the-empty-relevance-of-never-trump/ar-AAGehB7?ocid=spartandhp


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23 Aug 2019, 5:05 pm

The article in link pops up for a second then is replaced with a page not available right now notification, so couldn't read it.


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23 Aug 2019, 6:02 pm

They have no power and no prospect of gaining it.


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23 Aug 2019, 6:38 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
They have no power and no prospect of gaining it.


As a "Never-Trumper" myself I agree to the first but not the second. Trump's only has the support he has for one reason: He won. If he becomes the first 1-term 1-party president since Jimmy Carter he'll join a list of presidents that no one wants to be on.

Right now there is a misguided belief that Trumpism is a path to victory for the republican party despite Mitt Romney garnering more votes in 2012 than Donald Trump did in 2016. If he loses, particularly if he loses badly that illusion will be shattered and those who cast in with him all the way will find their power greatly diminished. Those who steered clear of him will find themselves in a significantly more prominent position.


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23 Aug 2019, 7:20 pm

In the scenario of Trump getting crushed republicans and conservatives as a whole will be repudiated and out of power possibly up to a generation. Which would be exactly what the never Trumpets warned about in 2016 coming true four years later then expected,


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24 Aug 2019, 6:09 am

Do you mean "irrelevant" forever?

Or just "irrelevant" in the coming election?

If its the later I suppose they are pretty much irrelevent, unless you're suggesting that the GOP swap out their own leader for someone else (either as a candidate, or even as POTUS) prior to the election. Sort of an internal impeachment (sacrifice the man to keep the party in power).

Even if that were a "thing" that a party could do- I am imagining the GOP members of congress getting together and and just voting to swap Trump out as their chief CEO like they were a board of directors of a company- would they actually do that? If the economy, and Trump, himself, continue to go off of the rails, maybe. Maybe not. But I doubt that that's even a thing that they could do even if they wanted to. British political parties can probably do that-have their members of parliament just pick a new leader of their party, but not parties in the US congress.

The other scenario is allowing the election to take its course, and for someone who is not Trump to defeat Trump as the GOP nominee during the primary season, so that someone who is not Trump faces the Dems in the General.

Has a sitting president ever been defeated and replaced by another candidate within his own party during the Primary season prior to the general election? We have had a number of one term presidents who lost the general, but I cant think of any sitting president who didn't even get renominated as the face of their party to run in the general- except for ones who died or resigned prior to running (LBJ was the incumbent, but resigned from running in 68).

So AFAIK that just never happens either. So I don't see how GOP "Never Trumpers" would have any kind of way to replace Trump as their party's candidate for 2020.



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24 Aug 2019, 10:25 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Do you mean "irrelevant" forever?

Or just "irrelevant" in the coming election?

If its the later I suppose they are pretty much irrelevent, unless you're suggesting that the GOP swap out their own leader for someone else (either as a candidate, or even as POTUS) prior to the election. Sort of an internal impeachment (sacrifice the man to keep the party in power).

Even if that were a "thing" that a party could do- I am imagining the GOP members of congress getting together and and just voting to swap Trump out as their chief CEO like they were a board of directors of a company- would they actually do that? If the economy, and Trump, himself, continue to go off of the rails, maybe. Maybe not. But I doubt that that's even a thing that they could do even if they wanted to. British political parties can probably do that-have their members of parliament just pick a new leader of their party, but not parties in the US congress.

The other scenario is allowing the election to take its course, and for someone who is not Trump to defeat Trump as the GOP nominee during the primary season, so that someone who is not Trump faces the Dems in the General.

Has a sitting president ever been defeated and replaced by another candidate within his own party during the Primary season prior to the general election? We have had a number of one term presidents who lost the general, but I cant think of any sitting president who didn't even get renominated as the face of their party to run in the general- except for ones who died or resigned prior to running (LBJ was the incumbent, but resigned from running in 68).

So AFAIK that just never happens either. So I don't see how GOP "Never Trumpers" would have any kind of way to replace Trump as their party's candidate for 2020.


Right now barring total economic collapse or being caught having sex with children I do not see how he does not get the nomination. He has an 80 to 90 percent approval rating within the party so it is extremely unlikely he will lose the primaries and if they go against the will of their own voters they will become like the current Never Trumpers, out of power and perpetually harassed or worse. He is embarrassing them but they are getting a lot of their agenda through and he is bringing cult like support to the party so they have little reason to put somebody else in. He is probably a serial sexual abuser but the #MeToo movement has faded somewhat and thier is no indication he is a pedophile.

If it gets so bad he is not nominated it will be a massive progressive landslide and the conservative cause will be irrelevant.


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24 Aug 2019, 2:42 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Do you mean "irrelevant" forever?

Or just "irrelevant" in the coming election?

If its the later I suppose they are pretty much irrelevent, unless you're suggesting that the GOP swap out their own leader for someone else (either as a candidate, or even as POTUS) prior to the election. Sort of an internal impeachment (sacrifice the man to keep the party in power).

Even if that were a "thing" that a party could do- I am imagining the GOP members of congress getting together and and just voting to swap Trump out as their chief CEO like they were a board of directors of a company- would they actually do that? If the economy, and Trump, himself, continue to go off of the rails, maybe. Maybe not. But I doubt that that's even a thing that they could do even if they wanted to. British political parties can probably do that-have their members of parliament just pick a new leader of their party, but not parties in the US congress.

The other scenario is allowing the election to take its course, and for someone who is not Trump to defeat Trump as the GOP nominee during the primary season, so that someone who is not Trump faces the Dems in the General.

Has a sitting president ever been defeated and replaced by another candidate within his own party during the Primary season prior to the general election? We have had a number of one term presidents who lost the general, but I cant think of any sitting president who didn't even get renominated as the face of their party to run in the general- except for ones who died or resigned prior to running (LBJ was the incumbent, but resigned from running in 68).

So AFAIK that just never happens either. So I don't see how GOP "Never Trumpers" would have any kind of way to replace Trump as their party's candidate for 2020.


Right now barring total economic collapse or being caught having sex with children I do not see how he does not get the nomination. He has an 80 to 90 percent approval rating within the party so it is extremely unlikely he will lose the primaries and if they go against the will of their own voters they will become like the current Never Trumpers, out of power and perpetually harassed or worse. He is embarrassing them but they are getting a lot of their agenda through and he is bringing cult like support to the party so they have little reason to put somebody else in. He is probably a serial sexual abuser but the #MeToo movement has faded somewhat and thier is no indication he is a pedophile.

If it gets so bad he is not nominated it will be a massive progressive landslide and the conservative cause will be irrelevant.


I agree there is near 0% chance Trump is not the republican nominee. That said I think you're underestimating how fast things change in politics. A democratic landslide in 2020 would not consign the republican party to irrelevence. It would force a recalibration inside the republican party away from trumpism (which is distinct from other republican philosophies such as evangelical conservatism and libertarianism).


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ASPartOfMe
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24 Aug 2019, 3:12 pm

Antrax wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Do you mean "irrelevant" forever?

Or just "irrelevant" in the coming election?

If its the later I suppose they are pretty much irrelevent, unless you're suggesting that the GOP swap out their own leader for someone else (either as a candidate, or even as POTUS) prior to the election. Sort of an internal impeachment (sacrifice the man to keep the party in power).

Even if that were a "thing" that a party could do- I am imagining the GOP members of congress getting together and and just voting to swap Trump out as their chief CEO like they were a board of directors of a company- would they actually do that? If the economy, and Trump, himself, continue to go off of the rails, maybe. Maybe not. But I doubt that that's even a thing that they could do even if they wanted to. British political parties can probably do that-have their members of parliament just pick a new leader of their party, but not parties in the US congress.

The other scenario is allowing the election to take its course, and for someone who is not Trump to defeat Trump as the GOP nominee during the primary season, so that someone who is not Trump faces the Dems in the General.

Has a sitting president ever been defeated and replaced by another candidate within his own party during the Primary season prior to the general election? We have had a number of one term presidents who lost the general, but I cant think of any sitting president who didn't even get renominated as the face of their party to run in the general- except for ones who died or resigned prior to running (LBJ was the incumbent, but resigned from running in 68).

So AFAIK that just never happens either. So I don't see how GOP "Never Trumpers" would have any kind of way to replace Trump as their party's candidate for 2020.


Right now barring total economic collapse or being caught having sex with children I do not see how he does not get the nomination. He has an 80 to 90 percent approval rating within the party so it is extremely unlikely he will lose the primaries and if they go against the will of their own voters they will become like the current Never Trumpers, out of power and perpetually harassed or worse. He is embarrassing them but they are getting a lot of their agenda through and he is bringing cult like support to the party so they have little reason to put somebody else in. He is probably a serial sexual abuser but the #MeToo movement has faded somewhat and thier is no indication he is a pedophile.

If it gets so bad he is not nominated it will be a massive progressive landslide and the conservative cause will be irrelevant.


I agree there is near 0% chance Trump is not the republican nominee. That said I think you're underestimating how fast things change in politics. A democratic landslide in 2020 would not consign the republican party to irrelevence. It would force a recalibration inside the republican party away from trumpism (which is distinct from other republican philosophies such as evangelical conservatism and libertarianism).


It might but they would be branded with Trump anyhow. Demographics are going against them so even if Trump had never happened they were probably headed to a long period of outsider status anyway. Trump might be speeding it up. How they would blow a hypothetical generation changing repudiation 2020 election is how they blew the Watergate elections of ‘74 and ‘76, overreach. Could happen but the consistent large Biden poll lead is suggestive of a repudiation of wokeness and socialism by Democrat voters.


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24 Aug 2019, 3:26 pm

While I would ideally like a multi-party system, until that day comes, we need the Dems to keep the GOP from going too far to the right, and the GOP to keep the Dems from going too far to the left.

However, because of changing demographics, the GOP has a lot more to lose if it can't break free of Trump, and could literally be voted out of existence.

I am also not against breaking up the "Big 2", if need be, the various factions would be their own parties, and there would be coalition governments. An American version of En Marche (Macron's party in France) would be the icing on the cake.


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24 Aug 2019, 3:37 pm

I honestly think the "Changing demographics will result in republican obliteration" is a mostly false hypothesis. This country has never been one-party dominated for longer than about 20 years, and even then the instances of domination longer than 4 years are rare:

1) After the defeat of John Adams, the federalist party was obliterated and Jefferson's democrats had control of the country for ~20 years when the whig party emerged and a different kind of populist democrat in Andrew Jackson caused internal divisions within that party.

2) After the Civil War, being saddled with alignment with the confederacy, the democratic party was greatly diminished in power. It would be just 12 years before democrat Tilden won the popular vote against Hayes. Republicans would win a lot of elections, but were no longer in complete control.

3) Under FDR the democrats controlled a great deal until world war II ended and their popularity faded.

If the democrats do gain complete control of the country, you can expect an opposition to emerge and demographics to break different ways.


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24 Aug 2019, 6:13 pm

The Federalists and the Whigs were obliterated so in an 1800s scenario republicans would have to be obliterated.

The Democrats were out of power after the civil war because many southern states were not back in the union and areas the south was under military occupation. Once reconstruction ended so did the Republican monopoly.

In the 60’s and 70’s similar to now many thought because of the protests and riots there would be a fundamental shift. The “generation gap” it was called. After the Vietnam defeat and Watergate republican irrelevance looked like a sure thing. Watergate turned out to be a bump in the road to a pro conservative realignment. It was misleading, the “new left”, “protest kids” were usually offspring of liberal parents. The offspring of Republicans might have had long hair and listened to rock music but they were generally conservative.

This time the generation gap is much more real. We have seen that since Obama was first elected. The millennial and Gen Z cohorts are much more diverse, socialist, have a more limited view of free speech and view climate change as an existential threat in need of radical remediation. The older cohorts grew up at time of career advancement if you work hard enough, individualism with many rock songs
promoting a do what you want to attitude. Iconoclastic did it my way people such as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were both rich and changed the world were boomers,
. The younger cohorts grew up saddled with massive debt, a great recession, and dysfunctional government caused by boomer extravagance and individualism overreach. They are working in open office, team work environments. Trump is a bump in the road that might could last another decade or so.


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24 Aug 2019, 6:50 pm

Try a thought experiment.

What if Trump had sat out the 16 election?

What would have happened?

Presumably some conventional Mitt Romney type Republican would have been nominated.

The GOP would have won both houses of Congress like they actually did. Or I assume that they would have. Its possible our generic GOP presidential candidate would have won as well, even if was only via the electorial college vote, and not the popular vote. That's how it usually goes. One party runs the nation for eight years, and then the other party takes over for eight years.

But the GOP was already kind of floundering around.

Though the Dems also had their populist rebellion as well, led by Sanders. So both parties may have been in need of radical change.

A couple years ago I was willing to bet the GOP would reach out and try to recruit Hispanics (kinda like Nixon's southern strategy) so it could outflank the Dems. The Dems would continue to own the Black vote, so the GOP would own the vote of the comparable sized Hispanic vote. And we would see a browner face for the GOP. Exactly the opposite happened, and the GOP went nativist, and White supremist under Trump.



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25 Aug 2019, 1:55 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Try a thought experiment.

What if Trump had sat out the 16 election?

What would have happened?

Presumably some conventional Mitt Romney type Republican would have been nominated.

The GOP would have won both houses of Congress like they actually did. Or I assume that they would have. Its possible our generic GOP presidential candidate would have won as well, even if was only via the electorial college vote, and not the popular vote. That's how it usually goes. One party runs the nation for eight years, and then the other party takes over for eight years.

But the GOP was already kind of floundering around.

Though the Dems also had their populist rebellion as well, led by Sanders. So both parties may have been in need of radical change.

A couple years ago I was willing to bet the GOP would reach out and try to recruit Hispanics (kinda like Nixon's southern strategy) so it could outflank the Dems. The Dems would continue to own the Black vote, so the GOP would own the vote of the comparable sized Hispanic vote. And we would see a browner face for the GOP. Exactly the opposite happened, and the GOP went nativist, and White supremist under Trump.


Romney won a higher percentage of the national vote than Trump (47 as opposed to 46) and was facing a much more difficult opponent. I think he would have won both the popular vote and the electoral college against Hillary.

The strategy you outlined seemed to be what the GOP was trying for. Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio were the touted candidates for the GOP establishment, both of whom are about as friendly on immigration as republicans tend to be. Trump and his fanbase took all their plans and blew it up.

It's interesting because the party has tried to purge itself of Trump disloyalists under his cultish leadership, but there are figures in the party too powerful to purge who share no love of Trump. You know a guy like Ted Cruz would probably love to watch him crash and burn in an election. Rand Paul has voted with him less than any other republican senator, and been a bigger thorn in his side than either Murkowski or Collins. Marco Rubio has stayed true to brand of pointing in whichever direction the political winds seem to point, criticizing Trump when it is most safe to do so. Post-Trump I bet these three try to remake the republican party in their own image. We can only hope Ted Cruz doesn't prevail.


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25 Aug 2019, 3:54 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Try a thought experiment.

What if Trump had sat out the 16 election?

What would have happened?

Presumably some conventional Mitt Romney type Republican would have been nominated.

The GOP would have won both houses of Congress like they actually did. Or I assume that they would have. Its possible our generic GOP presidential candidate would have won as well, even if was only via the electorial college vote, and not the popular vote. That's how it usually goes. One party runs the nation for eight years, and then the other party takes over for eight years.

But the GOP was already kind of floundering around.

Though the Dems also had their populist rebellion as well, led by Sanders. So both parties may have been in need of radical change.

A couple years ago I was willing to bet the GOP would reach out and try to recruit Hispanics (kinda like Nixon's southern strategy) so it could outflank the Dems. The Dems would continue to own the Black vote, so the GOP would own the vote of the comparable sized Hispanic vote. And we would see a browner face for the GOP. Exactly the opposite happened, and the GOP went nativist, and White supremist under Trump.


Ted Cruz would have won the nomination a that wing of the party would still be angry and he was different enough from the Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio type people. Cruz or any nominee would have beaten Hillary as she was the absolute worst candidate for the moment.


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25 Aug 2019, 7:48 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Try a thought experiment.

What if Trump had sat out the 16 election?

What would have happened?

Presumably some conventional Mitt Romney type Republican would have been nominated.

The GOP would have won both houses of Congress like they actually did. Or I assume that they would have. Its possible our generic GOP presidential candidate would have won as well, even if was only via the electorial college vote, and not the popular vote. That's how it usually goes. One party runs the nation for eight years, and then the other party takes over for eight years.

But the GOP was already kind of floundering around.

Though the Dems also had their populist rebellion as well, led by Sanders. So both parties may have been in need of radical change.

A couple years ago I was willing to bet the GOP would reach out and try to recruit Hispanics (kinda like Nixon's southern strategy) so it could outflank the Dems. The Dems would continue to own the Black vote, so the GOP would own the vote of the comparable sized Hispanic vote. And we would see a browner face for the GOP. Exactly the opposite happened, and the GOP went nativist, and White supremist under Trump.


Ted Cruz would have won the nomination a that wing of the party would still be angry and he was different enough from the Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio type people. Cruz or any nominee would have beaten Hillary as she was the absolute worst candidate for the moment.


She may have been the worst candidate for the moment, but she go more popular votes than anyone else.

She may have been the worst candidate for the moment, but she got more votes than anyone else including Trump.

Was Ted Cruz the second most popular with GOP voters after Trump? Maybe. If he were, and if he had been nominated in the absence of Trump - he would have gone to the General with all disadvantages of Trump (he was an extremist who alienated folks), but with none of the appeal of Trump across party lines. Trump was an unothorodox populist who drew voters away from the Dems. Cruz was orthodox GOP but extreme right, so would alienated as many folks as Trump but would not being able to offset that by stealing away blue collar votes from the Dems.

A more centrist GOPer like Rubio, or Kasich, might well have beat Hillary.