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The Code of Chivalry

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Metal Rat
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10 Dec 2019, 10:38 am

Mind you, there is much controversy about The Code of Chivalry, nowadays. Many doubt that it was ever truly as Noble or as Chivalrous as most like to believe. I doubt the Roman Catholics invented the idea though, no matter how much they would like to think so.



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10 Dec 2019, 10:40 am

Which Code of Chivalry?

Even the Ku Klux Klan considers itself chivalrous (it's in their constitution).


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10 Dec 2019, 10:52 am

Metal Rat wrote:
Mind you, there is much controversy about The Code of Chivalry, nowadays. Many doubt that it was ever truly as Noble or as Chivalrous as most like to believe. I doubt the Roman Catholics invented the idea though, no matter how much they would like to think so.

I've been Roman Catholic for most of my life, quite a theology nerd for many years, reading encyclicals etc.
There is no officially recognized "code of chivalry" in this religion.
Chivalrous behavior is often encouraged but never officially defined or demanded.


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10 Dec 2019, 10:59 am

The typical usage of the word that most of us are familiar with can make things sort of awkward sometimes and I’m not always sure what I should do.

Once I was holding the door open for a very elderly gentleman with a cane who wasn’t getting about very easily, but he took the door handle and insisted on holding it open for me.

I had another experience or two that was sort of similar, so now I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do.

Perhaps mutual politeness is better than old world chivalry. It’s less confusing.


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TwilightPrincess
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10 Dec 2019, 11:02 am

When a woman holds open a door, she’s being polite, but when a man does so, it’s chivalry. :hmph:


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Metal Rat
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10 Dec 2019, 11:21 am

magz wrote:
Metal Rat wrote:
Mind you, there is much controversy about The Code of Chivalry, nowadays. Many doubt that it was ever truly as Noble or as Chivalrous as most like to believe. I doubt the Roman Catholics invented the idea though, no matter how much they would like to think so.

I've been Roman Catholic for most of my life, quite a theology nerd for many years, reading encyclicals etc.
There is no officially recognized "code of chivalry" in this religion.
Chivalrous behavior is often encouraged but never officially defined or demanded.

The idea of Chivalry, the idea that men exist to protect women--or at any rate, some men exist to protect women-- probably existed before Christianity came to Europe. I suspect, that the Romans, and even the Teutonic Tribes they disdained, had the very same idea.



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10 Dec 2019, 11:26 am

The whole idea of chivalry is based on the myth that knighthood was noble and good -- a chimera of behaviors associated with Robin Hood, King Arthur, Judas Macabees, King David, Beowulf, Joshua (son of Nun), and several other personages of history and fable. There was no specific "Code" of chivalry until the 18th century.


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Metal Rat
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10 Dec 2019, 11:31 am

Fnord wrote:
The whole idea of chivalry is based on the myth that knighthood was noble and good -- a chimera of behaviors associated with Robin Hood, King Arthur, Judas Macabees, King David, Beowulf, Joshua (son of Nun), and several other personages of history and fable. There was no specific "Code" of chivalry until the 18th century.


Oh, about the time of the Romantic Period, when people became disillusioned with the Industrial Revolution, among other things. And you are saying it was not noble or good?



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10 Dec 2019, 11:34 am

Metal Rat wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The whole idea of chivalry is based on the myth that knighthood was noble and good -- a chimera of behaviors associated with Robin Hood, King Arthur, Judas Macabees, King David, Beowulf, Joshua (son of Nun), and several other personages of history and fable. There was no specific "Code" of chivalry until the 18th century.
Oh, about the time of the Romantic Period, when people became disillusioned with the Industrial Revolution, among other things. And you are saying it was not noble or good?
Ever hear of the Crusades? The atrocities of the Crusaders make the Vietnam war look like a church social.


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10 Dec 2019, 11:37 am

Fnord wrote:
Metal Rat wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The whole idea of chivalry is based on the myth that knighthood was noble and good -- a chimera of behaviors associated with Robin Hood, King Arthur, Judas Macabees, King David, Beowulf, Joshua (son of Nun), and several other personages of history and fable. There was no specific "Code" of chivalry until the 18th century.
Oh, about the time of the Romantic Period, when people became disillusioned with the Industrial Revolution, among other things. And you are saying it was not noble or good?
Ever hear of the Crusades? The atrocities of the Crusaders make the Vietnam war look like a church social.


They frequently depicted the Muslims as being less than human to make their course appear justified and less inhumane, sort of similar to Nazi ideology now that I think about it...


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10 Dec 2019, 11:41 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Metal Rat wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The whole idea of chivalry is based on the myth that knighthood was noble and good -- a chimera of behaviors associated with Robin Hood, King Arthur, Judas Macabees, King David, Beowulf, Joshua (son of Nun), and several other personages of history and fable. There was no specific "Code" of chivalry until the 18th century.
Oh, about the time of the Romantic Period, when people became disillusioned with the Industrial Revolution, among other things. And you are saying it was not noble or good?
Ever hear of the Crusades? The atrocities of the Crusaders make the Vietnam war look like a church social.


They frequently depicted the Muslims as being less than human to make their course appear justified and less inhumane, sort of similar to Nazi ideology now that I think about it...

That is an intriguing point, Twlightprincess!



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10 Dec 2019, 11:44 am

The idea of men protecting women (and women protecting children) is a survival strategy for humans in danger other than starvation.
Pregnancies are long and single-born so women are the bottleneck of population survival - one man and 10 women can have 10 times more children than 10 men and 1 woman, provided sufficient food is secured.
Sufficient food secured started with Neolithic, at least for higher social classes. The higher social classes of post-neolithic societes (knights, samurai) tended to engage in a lot of warfare. That made "chivalry" the optimal survival strategy.

In safe environment, it's not really important.


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10 Dec 2019, 11:50 am

Metal Rat wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Metal Rat wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The whole idea of chivalry is based on the myth that knighthood was noble and good -- a chimera of behaviors associated with Robin Hood, King Arthur, Judas Macabees, King David, Beowulf, Joshua (son of Nun), and several other personages of history and fable. There was no specific "Code" of chivalry until the 18th century.
Oh, about the time of the Romantic Period, when people became disillusioned with the Industrial Revolution, among other things. And you are saying it was not noble or good?
Ever hear of the Crusades? The atrocities of the Crusaders make the Vietnam war look like a church social.


They frequently depicted the Muslims as being less than human to make their course appear justified and less inhumane, sort of similar to Nazi ideology now that I think about it...

That is an intriguing point, Twlightprincess!


Thanks!

I read an anonymous, Medieval, French text about the quest for the holy grail, and I found the animalistic way one of the “saracens” was betrayed and then killed deeply disturbing.

As oppressors, we need to view groups as “less than” in order to support our prejudice and oppression. Americans did the same thing with slaves.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 10 Dec 2019, 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Metal Rat
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10 Dec 2019, 11:51 am

magz wrote:
The idea of men protecting women (and women protecting children) is a survival strategy for humans in danger other than starvation.
Pregnancies are long and single-born so women are the bottleneck of population survival - one man and 10 women can have 10 times more children than 10 men and 1 woman, provided sufficient food is secured.
Sufficient food secured started with Neolithic, at least for higher social classes. The higher social classes of post-neolithic societes (knights, samurai) tended to engage in a lot of warfare. That made "chivalry" the optimal survival strategy.

In safe environment, it's not really important.

That makes sense, somehow.



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10 Dec 2019, 11:52 am

magz wrote:
The idea of men protecting women (and women protecting children) is a survival strategy for humans in danger other than starvation.
Pregnancies are long and single-born so women are the bottleneck of population survival - one man and 10 women can have 10 times more children than 10 men and 1 woman, provided sufficient food is secured.
Sufficient food secured started with Neolithic, at least for higher social classes. The higher social classes of post-neolithic societes (knights, samurai) tended to engage in a lot of warfare. That made "chivalry" the optimal survival strategy.

In safe environment, it's not really important.


The one time I especially wanted chivalry was when I was pregnant and standing on a bus because no one would offer me a seat.

In their defense, they were probably too busy texting to notice the pregnant woman.


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Metal Rat
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10 Dec 2019, 12:51 pm

8) Tolkien was heavily into Medieval Legends.