Why do westerners hate freedom?

Post Reply New Topic

Conservatives do?

Which westerners?

Mostly conservatives. Germany (AFD), Italy (Lega), Poland (PiS), Denmark (Hard Line), Sweden (Sweden Democrats). The list goes on and on.

They all want to abolish liberty, have labor camps for political opponents and want to cooporate more with Russia than with UK or U.S.

As I wrote before, PiS in Poland is not trying to abolish liberty and only their opponents proclaim they will close PiS politicans in prisons if they win elections. This is really the official agenda of so called "liberals" in Poland... And PiS did not win becouse it is anti liberal, but becouse their opponents are corrupted bastards who cooperate with mafia and call themselves "liberals" only becouse it sounds better. Pity that all foreigners know about situation in Polant comes from one side propaganda without any attempt to find the truth.

There is long list of things I really hate in PiS, but these are not the ones shown in propaganda.

Such ridiculous generalities! Do you really mean why do some western governments support dictatorships?
None of the people I know defend authoritarian governments in other countries, none of my NT friends and none of my Aspie friends.

Governments of western democratic countries look to defend their own interests and the politicians of these countries want to maintain their power and have little concern for the values of the people and countries which they lead.

That is the answer. That is why the US supported supported evil men like Samoza https://www.wnyc.org/story/206680-anastasio-samoza/

It's not all westerners, but unfortunately, their numbers are growing. As more and more people are indoctrinated in schools to believe socialism is a good thing, their numbers will continue to grow. Hopefully, at some point, they will realize their ideas are anti freedom, but I don't know if that will happen in time.

The extreme right hardly clings to socialism.

A lot of people want strength, and as a lot of western counties are reaching levels of awareness where it becomes expected by people on especially the Left side to criticise the legacy of your country, pointing out terrible things that happened not too long ago, and be more accepting of disenfranchised groups. The other side fights for stronger senses of nationalistic pride and "strong" leaders that make them feel like it is okay to blindly follow, and won't get messed with. Which are dictators.

When I talk about liberalism, I mean the political philosophy which believes in maximising freedom, democracy, and equality before the law. I sometimes use it in a broad sense (referring to basically everyone from Bernie Sanders to Mitch McConnell - most people believe that the three things I outlined above are Good) and sometimes in a narrow sense (referring more to politicians who also believe in promotion of civil and human rights, capitalism, intersectional feminism, internationalism, secularism, etc.). I do appreciate that it isn't always clear which sense I am using it in.

Growing up as a kid I was indoctrinated into believing capitalism was the "good" thing, and that the only alternative was soviet style centrally planed economies. I was lead to believe and that everyone had limitless economic mobility, and that freedom was my ability to buy and sell commodities in a market. I believed this stuff. I was a right-wing libertarian at age 14.

But then I stepped out into the real word... I realized I wasn't living in a meritocracy.

I was 16 when the economy crashed. I was trying to get my first job. I remember trying to get a position at the local ski resort. I remember waiting in the chalet with 50 other people interviewing for the same job. It was insane.

Sooner or later; during my search for employment, I realized my ability to obtain a job wasn't necessarily dictated by my ability to perform the tasks at hand. It was mostly dictated by my social performance in interviews. I was very bitter and angry of the fact that I was never given a chance to prove myself. For years I was unable to find employment.

One day I became curious about communism. There was this documentary I saw on YouTube about Karl Marx. It introduced me to his theory of alienation --how working class people are deprived of autonomy in their workplaces, and that Marx was interested in liberating them. This was something huge, I never learned about that in school. I got thirsty for more information. I watched a Jason Unruhe video; it introduced me to the labor theory of value --he explained to me how employees are paid less in wages than income they generate. It all made sense and I was a marxist-leninist for a couple weeks.

Then I got exposed to anarchism. I realized the proletariat could never be freed through state power --that state bureaucrats will want to hold onto their positions of dominance and would become the new ruling class --that nation states are a main obstacle to working class liberation and that they must be dismantled to allow free classless societies to flourish.

Neither of them support freedom Bernie least so

https://youtu.be/wvJ64C6SMAQ

They don't but I think a few of them want a controlled economy.

I'm listening. Tell me about the third and fourth type of economy.

They do in a very loose sense. They don't want to lock you up without a fair trial, they support the First and the Fifth, they think slavery is bad, they support democracy to an extent. That's what I mean by "liberal in the broad sense".

A liberal in the narrow sense is someone who is committed to maximising liberty throughout the political sphere. They have a nuanced understanding of what liberty is - they're not libertarians who think the solution is just to shut down the government, they think the government should help people stay alive and find good jobs and invest in infrastructure - but actually in a lot of ways I think you'd feel happier supporting a liberal, an actual liberal, than you do with Trump, sly. You've certainly got a lot of liberal instincts.

Oh no. According to some of the conservatives I've talked to Liberals hate freedom