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Metal Rat
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11 Dec 2019, 12:26 pm

Perhaps, I am a Deist. After all, Christianity, Roman Catholic Christianity in particular, is more than a bit too anti-Jewish for my taste. Indeed, it is a little known fact that Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler and other top ranking Nazi Officials were born into the Roman Catholic faith. And, I would argue here, much as Eric Zuesse did, that the main root of Nazi Ideology was simply Christian anti-Judaism.

And no, despite what the Televangelist preachers, on TV, babble, America was not founded as a Christian Nation at all. In truth, the Founders were Deists, if anything. And from Deism logically followed The Separation of Church and State, and from The Separation of Church and State came the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution, which I would say is, essentially, The Separation of Nation and State. Moreover, it is precisely a couple of Nations, over in Europe, that Americans hate above all others, namely Russia and Germany, which were founded on the Christian Religion.



TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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11 Dec 2019, 12:37 pm

I'm more likely a misotheist. :P


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TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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11 Dec 2019, 12:41 pm

Also didnt Russia execute thousands of Christians and seize church property when the USSR enforced Atheism on its people?


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13 Dec 2019, 12:16 am

I'd just say worry about things that are plausibly real, including your metaphysics.


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13 Dec 2019, 12:46 pm

TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
Also didnt Russia execute thousands of Christians and seize church property when the USSR enforced Atheism on its people?

The Soviets executes a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. They didn't even need to hide what they were doing.

National Socialism, fascism, and communism lie at the outer extremes of Enlightenment ideology. It's what happens when empiricism takes a wrong turn or runs off the rails. Atheism is what you get when when you take strict empiricism to its logical end, but really it's more a flat, unevidenced, unreasoned denial based on narrow assumptions about falsifiability and the nature of reality. National socialism and communism HAVE to be atheistic to work, and because of the logical flaws inherent in those ideologies, not merely a matter of theology or anti-theology, they are unable to realize their purpose. And I won't even touch the logical issues of atheism.

For Germany and for the USSR, religion falls under Marx's "opium of the masses." For Marx, religion was unnecessary. However, it could also prove useful. Hitler ultimately rejected Christianity. He did, however, have the cooperation of the Catholic church insofar as the Church stayed out his way. I believe Hitler may have been the product of Nordic mysticism, and while he may not have subscribed to any religion, he was certainly in favor of a German-centered folk religion that reflected National Socialist ideals.

On its face it would be easy for a communist nation like the USSR to get rid of Christianity wholesale. Christianity teaches followers to be ready to die for their faith, a concept known within Christianity from its inception. Christ died to save mankind, not simply because of any real or perceived threat that He posed. It would have happened anyway, one way or the other. And since Christians can't die to save each other from sin, nor is it necessary that we do, our religion is not about death. It's about living. It's just that what we believe is important enough to us that don't mind giving up our lives for it. So a program to exterminate all traces of Christianity from the USSR would be so disastrous no government would be able to withstand it. The continued, open existence of a church in a communist country depends on how well it conforms with the government's message. Since priests aren't really allowed to preach anything, and with the lack of substance of a church service, religion ceases to be interesting save for those concerned more with tradition, and even that is a fairly empty expression of faith. I've had the pleasure to meet missionaries returning from China and Belarus. While their stay was short and uneventful, there are stories of local authorities harassing believers in church meetings. At least in China, what I've heard is that these incidents are largely symbolic and routine, so worshipers tend to ignore it. They'll go through the motions of complying with authorities before getting right back to their Bible study. In Belarus, the government is more active getting Christian groups out of the country. But pretty much as soon as they put a padlock on one gathering place, another one springs up not far from it.

Christians are supposed to be committed to not causing trouble with governments. It could work well to their advantage to allow Christianity. But Christians have always promoted freedom where they are, and that's not a message that tends to go over well with authoritarian governments. Communist countries will usually tolerate official, state churches, but they don't exactly encourage people to join.



Metal Rat
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15 Dec 2019, 7:32 am

AngelRho wrote:
TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
Also didnt Russia execute thousands of Christians and seize church property when the USSR enforced Atheism on its people?

The Soviets executes a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. They didn't even need to hide what they were doing.

National Socialism, fascism, and communism lie at the outer extremes of Enlightenment ideology. It's what happens when empiricism takes a wrong turn or runs off the rails. Atheism is what you get when when you take strict empiricism to its logical end, but really it's more a flat, unevidenced, unreasoned denial based on narrow assumptions about falsifiability and the nature of reality. National socialism and communism HAVE to be atheistic to work, and because of the logical flaws inherent in those ideologies, not merely a matter of theology or anti-theology, they are unable to realize their purpose. And I won't even touch the logical issues of atheism.

For Germany and for the USSR, religion falls under Marx's "opium of the masses." For Marx, religion was unnecessary. However, it could also prove useful. Hitler ultimately rejected Christianity. He did, however, have the cooperation of the Catholic church insofar as the Church stayed out his way. I believe Hitler may have been the product of Nordic mysticism, and while he may not have subscribed to any religion, he was certainly in favor of a German-centered folk religion that reflected National Socialist ideals.

On its face it would be easy for a communist nation like the USSR to get rid of Christianity wholesale. Christianity teaches followers to be ready to die for their faith, a concept known within Christianity from its inception. Christ died to save mankind, not simply because of any real or perceived threat that He posed. It would have happened anyway, one way or the other. And since Christians can't die to save each other from sin, nor is it necessary that we do, our religion is not about death. It's about living. It's just that what we believe is important enough to us that don't mind giving up our lives for it. So a program to exterminate all traces of Christianity from the USSR would be so disastrous no government would be able to withstand it. The continued, open existence of a church in a communist country depends on how well it conforms with the government's message. Since priests aren't really allowed to preach anything, and with the lack of substance of a church service, religion ceases to be interesting save for those concerned more with tradition, and even that is a fairly empty expression of faith. I've had the pleasure to meet missionaries returning from China and Belarus. While their stay was short and uneventful, there are stories of local authorities harassing believers in church meetings. At least in China, what I've heard is that these incidents are largely symbolic and routine, so worshipers tend to ignore it. They'll go through the motions of complying with authorities before getting right back to their Bible study. In Belarus, the government is more active getting Christian groups out of the country. But pretty much as soon as they put a padlock on one gathering place, another one springs up not far from it.

Christians are supposed to be committed to not causing trouble with governments. It could work well to their advantage to allow Christianity. But Christians have always promoted freedom where they are, and that's not a message that tends to go over well with authoritarian governments. Communist countries will usually tolerate official, state churches, but they don't exactly encourage people to join.

Still, it is very interesting--is it not?-- that Hitler was born into the Roman Catholic faith. One can never underestimate the role of Christian anti-Judaism in the formation of the Nazis' ideological worldview!



Twilightprincess
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15 Dec 2019, 4:28 pm

Hitler didn’t actually believe in the tenets of Catholicism, but he was able to manipulate others who did.

I think sociopathy is more of a genetic trait than anything else.

Hitler could’ve been born into just about any religious faith and the results probably would’ve been the same. He was lucky in the sense that most crazy, psychopaths don’t attain such a vast amount of power. He was just born at the right place and time.



Metal Rat
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15 Dec 2019, 5:26 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Hitler didn’t actually believe in the tenets of Catholicism, but he was able to manipulate others who did.

I think sociopathy is more of a genetic trait than anything else.

Hitler could’ve been born into just about any religious faith and the results probably would’ve been the same. He was lucky in the sense that most crazy, psychopaths don’t attain such a vast amount of power. He was just born at the right place and time.

Still, I suspect he got his ideas about Jewish people from traditional Christian anti-Judaism.



Twilightprincess
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15 Dec 2019, 5:46 pm

What about Jihad?

Islam has hardly been immune to sociopaths leading extremist groups.



Metal Rat
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15 Dec 2019, 6:18 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
What about Jihad?

Islam has hardly been immune to sociopaths leading extremist groups.

Oh, I never actually thought about that angle.



AngelRho
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16 Dec 2019, 12:13 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Hitler didn’t actually believe in the tenets of Catholicism, but he was able to manipulate others who did.

I think sociopathy is more of a genetic trait than anything else.

Hitler could’ve been born into just about any religious faith and the results probably would’ve been the same. He was lucky in the sense that most crazy, psychopaths don’t attain such a vast amount of power. He was just born at the right place and time.

Exactly. And he never let a good crisis go to waste. Hitler was skilled at using peoples' ideologies against them and in particular had a significant following among the Thule Society. While I don't buy into conspiracy theories, they do exist for a reason. Without the Thule Society, there probably wouldn't have been the formulation of the NSDAP as we know it. Hitler's policies are so remarkably like Thule that some people believe he was recruited by Thule as some sort of Aryan savior. And as quickly as Thule served Hitler's purpose, he moved to shut it down along with other esoteric groups. I have no doubt if Hitler had accomplished his goals, Christianity might be next on the chopping block. The Long Knives against the SA would come out again and again for as long as it took.



Twilightprincess
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16 Dec 2019, 1:08 pm

Metal Rat wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Hitler didn’t actually believe in the tenets of Catholicism, but he was able to manipulate others who did.

I think sociopathy is more of a genetic trait than anything else.

Hitler could’ve been born into just about any religious faith and the results probably would’ve been the same. He was lucky in the sense that most crazy, psychopaths don’t attain such a vast amount of power. He was just born at the right place and time.

Still, I suspect he got his ideas about Jewish people from traditional Christian anti-Judaism.


I am by no means an expert on this topic, but there is also an ethnic component at work here. People tend to be suspicious of groups that have different cultural and ethnic backgrounds which leads to misunderstandings, backlash, and all sorts of drama in general. Prejudice towards Jews closely resembled racism. People of Jewish descent who did not follow a Jewish faith were treated the same as if they did.

While prejudice against Jews was certainly informed and furthered by Christian ideology, it was hardly the only factor at work.

Jews also weren’t the only group assigned to Nazi concentration camps. Other religious minorities (including Christian sects), disabled people, as well as people in the gay community were persecuted similarly although the Jewish community, by far, took the biggest hit.

Nazis were looking to make a white super race. Jews were not viewed as “white.” Hitler wanted power, so he easily preyed upon the tough times and existing prejudices of the people to launch a remarkably effective campaign. Also, a common prejudice tends to further unite a group of people which makes it easier to maintain control over them, so Hitler continued to feed this prejudice through an extensive campaign of propaganda. The persecution of Jews was probably moreso a tactical maneuver than anything else.

Further, maniacal leaders often try to establish a spiritual component to their ideology to further extend their locus of control whether they buy into their religious arguments or not. Religious texts have been used to support all sorts of bigotry and injustices.

What I’m trying to say is that the situation was far more complex and nuanced than “Catholics don’t like Jews.”