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Bradleigh
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09 Jan 2020, 12:15 am

So you believe that everyone can make $161,000 if they work hard enough? Just tell everyone to work harder and we would all be earning over 100 grand. Better go tell those people who work multiple but are still bellow the poverty line to get their act together, I guess that they can all go looking for the type of job your husband has.

I ain't saying that it can't happen, but it is literally impossible for everyone to get so lucky. There are people in rich families that barely have to try at all, and can have their degrees pretty much paid for along with a job that pays ridiculous amounts.


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auntblabby
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09 Jan 2020, 12:35 am

them that has, shall get; them that's not, shall lose. that the bible says, and it still is news. mama may have, and papa may have, but god bless the child that's got his own...



Kraichgauer
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09 Jan 2020, 12:47 am

Persephone29 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
So, you are saying that being poor is a choice?

Do you recognise the self interest already inherent in the culture, where companies continue to report record profit to pay out to its higher ups and stockholders, but you see no changes on things like a minimum wage and trying to cut every expense possible with its workers?



Being poor is not a choice, but staying poor can definitely be a choice. Especially if the choice involves being a 'starving artist,' which is the choice I am talking about in the comment you are responding to. Krachy chooses to stay home and write, which is fine. That's his choice. What isn't his choice is to tell me that my interests would be better served if I saw things his way. He thinks if my 58 year old husband keeps slaving away, drops our insurance and we all get on Medicaid, everything would be great. Kracky's happy at his typewriter, doing what he loves. My husband wants to retire, but doesn't dare. And we all have mediocre insurance. That's no fun for us Bradleigh, that's only fun for Kracky.


No, I want everything to be just delightful for your 58 year old husband, too. The current system where ordinary working people just get the crumbs of the uber rich will never make anyone better off, save for the uber rich.


I don't understand what you are referencing. My husband never got an education, doesn't even have his GED. He got into the elevator trade. Began as a helper, took the classes and made mechanic. Then, got the foreman job. Then applied for the service manager position. He made $161,000 last year, in Florida. No education, no leg up, just hard work. I just can't buy into what you're saying. If you want it bad enough, you'll get it. If you don't, you'll meet one road block and give up.


Well, I'm very happy for your husband. But the fact is, your hubby is the exception not the rule. At one time anyone could make it in America through hard work. I know that because both my parents were working class; my dad had a great job at an aluminum plant so that my mom didn't have to work, and I got spoiled rotten as a kid. But today it's the exception where an ordinary person can have the sort of life I had growing up. And while hard work was part of it, a big part of my family's success back then had to do with my dad's union membership.


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firemonkey
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09 Jan 2020, 5:07 am

Persephone29 wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
If what kind of job you have is largely dependent on how intelligent you are , and how intelligent you are is beyond your control, should we praise people who are clever and rich while chastising the poor and less intelligent?



No, I see that as the perfect example of someone who should be eligible for services. I have no problem with taking care of people who are incapable of supporting themselves. I have a huge problem with people who can but prefer not to.

My son is on the spectrum, he has a less then average IQ. He works everyday. He lives on his own. It's all in how you raise them. If you raise them to think they 'can't,' they won't even try. I say raise them to think they can and then backtrack if you must.


I've heard quite a few on the political right say that . It would be a fairly reasonable statement if the party they support here or in the USA hadn't chosen to move the goalposts, due to ideology , as to who is deserving,or not deserving , of support .

I'd have more time for 'Of course I want the genuinely disabled helped' type comments if who is deemed as such hadn't been dishonestly , and sociopathically , changed over the years



TheRobotLives
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09 Jan 2020, 5:12 am

What should "the left" do then for poor people?

Job training sounds good?


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Kraichgauer
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09 Jan 2020, 5:24 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
What should "the left" do then for poor people?

Job training sounds good?


Most certainly, yes. But for job training there has to be available jobs that actually make that training worthwhile in the form of wages and benefits. Instead of just putting the burden of getting work on labor, the government should also make sure that businesses stop their usual model of working as few workers for as long as possible, with as little pay that they can get away with, all to "keep competitive" (translation: make owners and stockholders exorbitantly rich). If that means coercion on the part of the government, and denial of business' right to out source jobs across borders, then so be it.


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Persephone29
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09 Jan 2020, 8:01 am

Well, my son is on the spectrum and he details cars for a living. He has insurance. He works for a company that is contracted by the local car dealerships. When it's cold, his hands get dry, crack and bleed. But, he will not miss work, even when he should. I still say it has a tremendous amount to do with how you are raised. If every bang, ding, ow is coddled, you might have a problem. He is obsessive, he puts that seeming defect to use in his ability to excel in what he can do.

Sorry, I just don't buy it guys. If you are a true handicap: in a wheelchair, can't dress yourself, can't read street signs (for safety purposes), have seizures, hear voices, or whatever other unfortunate things come with a disability, I genuinely pray you get the help that you need. But, I just can't be made to believe that anyone short of that can't wash a car. I can be made to believe that you think it's beneath your intellect and therefore you won't wash a car.


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Persephone29
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09 Jan 2020, 8:05 am

Bradleigh wrote:
So you believe that everyone can make $161,000 if they work hard enough? Just tell everyone to work harder and we would all be earning over 100 grand. Better go tell those people who work multiple but are still bellow the poverty line to get their act together, I guess that they can all go looking for the type of job your husband has.

I ain't saying that it can't happen, but it is literally impossible for everyone to get so lucky. There are people in rich families that barely have to try at all, and can have their degrees pretty much paid for along with a job that pays ridiculous amounts.


It has nothing to do with luck. He harassed the company he works for until they gave him a job. He called them everyday, on his lunch break working for considerably less, until they got so sick of hearing from him that they hired him on at base pay. Then, he stuck with it for 35 years.


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Bradleigh
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09 Jan 2020, 8:28 am

Persephone29 wrote:
It has nothing to do with luck. He harassed the company he works for until they gave him a job. He called them everyday, on his lunch break working for considerably less, until they got so sick of hearing from him that they hired him on at base pay. Then, he stuck with it for 35 years.


And if everybody did the same?

Things don't even work like they did 35 years ago. Pretty much everywhere requires putting in applications through the internet, and if they started to get annoyed they will blacklist all your applications. And everywhere requires experience now. I spent a year and a half doing volunteer work in data entry while working as an assistant bookkeeper for a year part time, and still spent the entire last year putting in hundreds of application for office positions with no luck. So spare me if I don't take too kindly advice that I have not been trying hard enough.


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firemonkey
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09 Jan 2020, 8:38 am

Persephone29 wrote:

Sorry, I just don't buy it guys. If you are a true handicap


That gets to the heart of the matter as to how those on the political right view the disabled . They're people to be found guilty unless proven innocent ,within a system where the bar proving you're disabled enough to need support has been raised a significant amount .

It becomes increasingly obvious that the political right has wholeheartedly embraced a thoroughly dishonest and quite abusive mindset .

It wasn't always like that . Things changed for the worse with Thatcher and Reagan . In the UK there was Tory paternalism , yes those people believed there were those who were born to lead and those who were not . However they also believed that they had a responsibility towards those lower down the totem pole .

That was swept away , and replaced by a far more nasty and uncivilised conservatism .



Persephone29
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09 Jan 2020, 8:49 am

Bradleigh wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
It has nothing to do with luck. He harassed the company he works for until they gave him a job. He called them everyday, on his lunch break working for considerably less, until they got so sick of hearing from him that they hired him on at base pay. Then, he stuck with it for 35 years.


And if everybody did the same?

Things don't even work like they did 35 years ago. Pretty much everywhere requires putting in applications through the internet, and if they started to get annoyed they will blacklist all your applications. And everywhere requires experience now. I spent a year and a half doing volunteer work in data entry while working as an assistant bookkeeper for a year part time, and still spent the entire last year putting in hundreds of application for office positions with no luck. So spare me if I don't take too kindly advice that I have not been trying hard enough.


Don't take my advice... I'm just telling you why I believe the way I do. If you like relying on your government, go for it.


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Persephone29
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09 Jan 2020, 8:55 am

firemonkey wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:

Sorry, I just don't buy it guys. If you are a true handicap


That gets to the heart of the matter as to how those on the political right view the disabled . They're people to be found guilty unless proven innocent ,within a system where the bar proving you're disabled enough to need support has been raised a significant amount .

It becomes increasingly obvious that the political right has wholeheartedly embraced a thoroughly dishonest and quite abusive mindset .

It wasn't always like that . Things changed for the worse with Thatcher and Reagan . In the UK there was Tory paternalism , yes those people believed there were those who were born to lead and those who were not . However they also believed that they had a responsibility towards those lower down the totem pole .

That was swept away , and replaced by a far more nasty and uncivilised conservatism .


Do you think that 'things' changed because society changed? More people were goldbricking, instead of working? Disability is supposed to be a rarity, not the norm. Everyone has something wrong with them, that shouldn't constitute disability.


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09 Jan 2020, 9:04 am

The right wins because they can make people believe the left are the ones doing all the things the right wants to do. Every time the right wants to do something bad, they successfully convince people that the left is doing it instead.

For example censorship. The right has many people convinced that the left and only the left wants more censorship. This makes it so much easier for the right to get away with censoring things.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jan 2020, 9:36 am

This "application by Internet" thing has really screwed it up for many people. It certainly screwed it up for me while I was seeking a second job. People can't walk into temp services any more, take the clerical tests, and be sent out the next day like what happened in the 1980s (with me). The only jobs that hire the same day or the next day are messenger positions. Or maybe some retail positions.

These days, it takes at least two weeks for somebody to get a job; whereas, in 1980, one could actually start a job the same day after getting hired. I started the beginning of the next week after I got hired at my present job in 1980.



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09 Jan 2020, 9:46 am

Persephone29 wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:

Sorry, I just don't buy it guys. If you are a true handicap


That gets to the heart of the matter as to how those on the political right view the disabled . They're people to be found guilty unless proven innocent ,within a system where the bar proving you're disabled enough to need support has been raised a significant amount .

It becomes increasingly obvious that the political right has wholeheartedly embraced a thoroughly dishonest and quite abusive mindset .

It wasn't always like that . Things changed for the worse with Thatcher and Reagan . In the UK there was Tory paternalism , yes those people believed there were those who were born to lead and those who were not . However they also believed that they had a responsibility towards those lower down the totem pole .

That was swept away , and replaced by a far more nasty and uncivilised conservatism .


Do you think that 'things' changed because society changed? More people were goldbricking, instead of working? Disability is supposed to be a rarity, not the norm. Everyone has something wrong with them, that shouldn't constitute disability.



I think the belief that there were more people goldbricking is something that those on the political right , due to their political philosophy and/or lack of intellect , have chosen to embrace .

Most people aren't disabled . However those on the political right spout ignorant BS that says disability is becoming the norm . It isn't . Embracing a false belief that it is allows right wing policy makers to think it is morally acceptable for disabled people to get less and less help and support . As in the eyes of those right wing policy makers most of them are just goldbrickers,scroungers etc . That there aren't masses of people goldbricking etc is an inconvenient truth right wing policy makers chose to ignore .



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09 Jan 2020, 9:47 am

The main reason the left looses is because there divided and are always fighting against each other and they are always judging and putting down those within the left wing spectrum that they disagree with.Instead of focusing in on what they do agree on and going from there and accepting with gratitude the support of those who they don't completely agree with.

The right on the other hand works together and accepts all conservative viewpoints even ones they don't like,do you really think Trump likes the religious right,of coarse not he pays hush money to hookers.But he gratefully accepts there support.Do you really think most republicans in America like Trump,of coarse not but they rally around the conservative canidate that is most electable.

A lot of republicans are pro choice but they embrace the religious right because they are conservative,in short the right are not fighting with each other they are banded together to form a strong unit.The left does not do this and this leaves them weak.


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