Do You See Into The Spiritual Realm?

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That's it.  We're expressing our opinions.  My hope is to provoke someone into a live, verifiable demonstration of alleged 'spiritual' phenomena, or at least get someone to provide enough of a description of the alleged "spiritual realm" and its operating principles for me to engage in my own explorations.  So far, nothing.

Ganzfeld has a probability of .25 and yet consistently comes in between .29 and .31? Something Caroline Watt even admits they're still trying to hash out the reason for?

I’m glad that you now have an opportunity to reread them.

How to compose a successful critical commentary, according to Rappaport's Rules:

1: You should attempt to re-express your target's position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, "Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way."

"I believe in a Spiritual Realm. Anyone who doesn't is disabled."

2: You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).

"..."

3: You should mention anything you have learned from your target.

"I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove me wrong."

4: Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Done.

Now ... about those alleged "Spiritual Principles" ... ?

Last edited by Fnord on 21 Jan 2020, 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's not the way the world works though. If someone really believes something's true or not true most of the time you can't even bring facts or contingencies in and you're dealing with a very high-quality participant if they won't immediately pull social power moves.

How much are you willing to pay?

If I’m provided with a substantial amount of verifiable evidence, I’d change my mind.

Of course you can express your opinion, but like i said some things are not substantial and impossible to prove by their very own nature. I see this thread as more leaning towards people who have witnessed supernatural phenomena and discussing this on a more philosophical way, not a scientific one. What Mountain Goat mentioned as disability (which i don't agree by the way) can be interpreted as a lack of abstract or conceptual thinking. Since science deals with hard facts, it would be a dead end to discuss these things in regard to whether it can be proven. And i think people get a little frustrated when this kind of thinking is forced on them. Hope i made sense

We drifted off into a completely different kind of discussion but:

1) I don't think Goat's diagnosis of it as a disability was useful, and with such an emotionally heated issue it's like saying conservatism or liberalism is a disability - you just can't do it because the term 'disability' nearly always means defective or less than, life's mostly tradeoffs and very little is purely a disability.

2) They generally get pulled back into the frame of 'show me peer reviewed research in the right journal that scientists recorded a ghost - otherwise reductive materialism FTW'. We can't even figure out where we meaningfully disagree because the framing won't allow for that.

3) Here's one - something I could learn, please hash out where the actual boundary is on this one - I think it comes far, far closer to stable/solid ground than entities. Something more in line with merits and evidence for panpsychism, functionalism, neutral monism, etc. as a background set rather than reductive materialism as the full container.

I'm on my way home from holiday so I will be several hours, but I'd be happy to reply when I'm settled.

This whole issue of framing the inability to experience supernatural phenomenon only occurred because OP was triggered by posters in an earlier thread referring to having these experiences as inherent signs of mental illness. Perhaps they're not delusions, but colour me unconvinced.

Science actually requires both creativity (even abstract creativity, especially in physics) and analytical thinking. It takes creativity to see things in a new way or to come up with new solutions to things. Analytical and objective thinking is, of course, necessary as well, especially when it comes to experimentation and discarding hypotheses that have been disproven.

Anyway, the initial question asked if people believed in a spirit realm. People on either side of the question are going to answer.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 21 Jan 2020, 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Much of what is “spiritual” is not scientifically verifiable in the least. It tends to be a reflection of one’s subjective experience.

There are people who will transform their subjective experiences into the objective realm, and insist on their efficacy to others....or many others. This could lead to danger.

Cults are an extreme example of what can result when the subjective is converted into the objective by a person—in a manner which is vociferously persuasive. They insist that their subjective experience applies to others, and force vulnerable folk to act (e.g empty their bank accounts) in order to adhere to a “visionary’s” subjective experience.

Metaphysical debate is cool when there is discussion and not insistence. The same goes for atheism and empiricism.

I believe it is productive to discuss metaphysics and religion in a philosophical context, as well as to discuss secular philosophy.

Pure scientific logic is only one way of looking at things. It is, primarily, my way of looking at things--though, much of the time, "logic" is not what is "true." I am an atheist, and primarily an empiricist. But then....you never know!

So then, the alleged "Spiritual Realm" is "not substantial" and thus "impossible to prove", and not a "hard fact". Also, you want to discuss the alleged "Spiritual Realm" in "a more philosophical way, not a scientific one".  Okay, got it.

Still, whatever codified information you can share on alleged "Spiritual Realm Principles" would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Last edited by Fnord on 21 Jan 2020, 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As much as other people pay me for my opinions, my advice, and any factual information I may provide on this website.

Science can't even Reliably Measure and Replicate the Human experience of Emotions.

Science can't even Reliably Measure and Replicate the Process of How Human Consciousness actually works.

i enjoy Science but it is only good at what it can and will reliably measure and replicate in terms of Existence, overall.

Overall, considering Consciousness is our existence; Art is much Better at describing Our Inner Universe than Science
ever will as it just doesn't have a tool to reliably measure and replicate the Essence of our Existence; Yes, our
Conscious experience.

There are so many dimensions of Conscious Experience. There are so many Human Potentials left Untapped.

Some folks are color blind;

Some folks are mind blind;

Some folks cannot even read
Emotions into what eyes have to speak;

And Yet we try to put concrete shoes on all the potentials
of Life that NOT EVERY ONE experiences. Count me out; if i had listened
to what Science insisted my Future would be based on Averages i'd be DEAD;
THREE TIMES WEAKER; SO MUCH SLOWER; WITH JUST A GRINCH SIZED HEART.

THE SPIRITUAL REALM IS OUR CONSCIOUS REALITY.

It is diverse as every color of every flower; every reflection
of every grain of sand that either shimmers or stays dim.

i see 'Dead People' who are living without a fuller 'spiritual realm'
most every where i go; they are missing parts now like Art of heART
and Art of smART; all they may left with is 's' and 'm' of 'he'; sort of like 'Republican Politics';
or in general, people who scam others for material gains; there is so much more of that now
that the opportunities present themselves online; 'Good spirits' are getting harder to find; that is what i seek.

Yep; there are plenty of Ghosts and Demons Wandering the Earth with UFO Souls as metaphor of course that
is as real as real gets in the Inner Universe of What We Experience and attempt to articulate with others.

The Flesh and Blood Spirit is as real as what we Exercise as our moving, connecting, co-creating potentials.

And every time i think of the 'pathetic attempts' to describe the Emotional and Sensory Experiences of life
in 'that Old King James Version of a Bible'; i am reminded of the Round Table of Old White Angry Men at the
Hardee's Breakfast Bar that exclude any Female input for their View of their Subjective World as it exists.

Haha; the Human condition Still wears diapers in what our potentials really are; i venture to sing most of those
diapers are still of the male variety as they fear what lurks inside; both Shadow and Flowers that Stand to Bloom
without fear.

Emotional/Sensory Realm Equals Spiritual Realm Equals the Subjective Experience of our Inner Experiences;
Some folks are incapable of actually feeling and sensing Love and freely giving and sharing Love at ALL.

So many kinds of disabilities; so much poverty of Human Flesh and Blood HeART, Spirit, and Soul; so many
that are not labeled at all. This is a much Bigger Issue than just Ghosts, Demons, and UFO's; this is an existential
issue of Black Abyss thru Purgatory Shades of Grey to Feeling and Sensing Unlimited Colors beyond Rainbows of Heaven now; That Much Science can at least light up on a Brain scan to see there is a difference; a shallow view; never the less, different.

"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour"

-William Blake

That's seeing into the Real Spiritual
Realm; it is an exercise of Human Potential fulfilled.

Again; Ghosts, Demons, and UFO's; that's no different
to me than what Antiquated Bibles have to offer of Human Potential.

Neuroscience currently suggests we all Hallucinate our Realities as we go based on what
We Hallucinate Before; i will much rather Create Beyond Rainbow Colors of Heaven and
experience what William Blake suggests is possible than still in live in 3 Black and White Channels of Life;

So, i for one; just do it.

i listened to so much naysaying about Human Emotions being mush and
all of what human limits were here based on Science; my results; my effective results now
are empirically measurable and irrefutable; no need to go over them again; at least not for me.

It's the difference between living and Living in color as to whether or We Truly See, Be, and Do a Spiritual Realm that's Real.