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Sweetleaf
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05 Jun 2020, 2:57 am

They commit humans rights violations left and right...so how in any rational world is it 'wrong' to criticize that nation. Yes I know some jews who survived the holocaust live there now...ok...how does that mean their government has the right to treat palestinians the same way the nazis treated the jews essentially? I am sorry you don't just get to claim that as a reason to opress people.

LIke Isreal has violated human rights regulations and they should be held accountable, they don't just get to do whatever they want because the holocaust happened. Also I thought the whole thing about the holocaust was 'never forget' which I always took to mean never opress people like that or in a way simular ever again...and what does the Isreali government do? Act exactly like nazis towards the palestinaians...just because its not jews they are bulldozing doesn't make it better or more right.

They even train their military to help escalate situations to justify brutality against civilians than actually trying to diffuse violence and come to a peaceful resolution. Apparently U.S cops are in a cross training program so they also learn these tactics to help get the crowd out of control so they can 'diffuse' it with violence and justify it because 'people were rioting' which they basically caused due to intentionally trying to cause confusion and chaos designed to make people more likely to riot or get confrontational...so then they have an excuse to use even more force.

Its like what they do in Israel...anytime there is unrest from palestinians, they respond with the most extreme force possible...which also serves to get more people worked up so they can then use more violence against them after provoking them...even killing women and children indiscriminately as a lesson to anyone who would think to resist. And then just coldy say...well you all should have just laid down and let us bulldoze your homes and places of buisiness...how dare you show any resistance its your fault we killed unarmed civilians including children.

Sorry but a nation that is ok with just bulldozing peoples homes to make more living space, and killing children to make a point isn't a nation I want to praise...and I do not think that makes me anti-semetic. I have no issues with jewish people...but as for the Isreali government they are doing a lot of wrong when it comes to the palestinians.



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05 Jun 2020, 6:22 am

I don’t think it’s that common for people to think Israel should never be criticised, but that criticism should be proportional.

Israel has by far the best record on human rights and civil liberties of any country in the region. It’s a modern liberal democracy where all have the same rights regardless of ethnicity.

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is not remotely proportional, in fact I think it is disgusting. Nothing Israel has done is remotely comparable to the Nazis, who murdered twelve million people.



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05 Jun 2020, 7:59 am

It is more fair to compare Israel to its neighbors -- countries where a rape victim can still be murdered by a male relative to restore her family's "honor".


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BTDT
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05 Jun 2020, 8:03 am

https://time.com/5678313/trump-administ ... -lawsuits/
Are you OK with the way the USA separates immigrant families?



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05 Jun 2020, 8:09 am

I don't think Eretz Yisrael is above criticism,there get there share of heat,they are hated throughout the middle east.Many middle eastern countries would nuke them off the planet if they had the nukes and wouldn't get nuked in return by the US.

They get a degree of favoritism from the US because we are a Christian nation and Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and America does protect Israel.There are Americans who speak out against Israel,even some Chasidic Jews believe it is a blasphemy to have a Jewish state in Palestine before the coming of the Messiah.

Your used to a American liberal circle of friends which would be very pro Israel,but around the world and even in America Erezt Yisrael get's it's fair share of criticism.


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techstepgenr8tion
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05 Jun 2020, 8:11 am

I think this coincidentally came about at the right time, ie. I can see the dynamics that fuel things like race riots in the US being something similar to people's focus on Israel.

There's a deep down desire, I think among most people, to completely ignore the human condition and what we are. Somehow, through a lot of circuitous steps, we end up demanding the highly successful be absolutely perfect and pay next to if not zero attention to those who are less successful. It could be that we see success as power and thus the successful are an imperial force set to dominate and take things away from the less successful. All of this said Israel is not perfect, it's human rights record is not perfect, I'd even go so far as to say a lot of things that Chomsky has said are probably right, just that a special kind of spotlight of public attention gets hung over their every discrepancy while hardly anyone talks about or even knows what the Armenian genocide in Turkey is, and perhaps they haven't even heard of the genoicides and civil wars that raged in West Africa in the 1990's and how many people died as a result because western media took no interest (possibly because they had no influence on western politics).

I suppose some of this goes with the concept of 'holding power to account', the thing I worry about though is that if people don't know what they're doing when they do that and they get limbic rather than analytical in that process they completely miss the worst things a country does, jump on the sensational or selacious, and any opportunity to actually do this constructively gets missed because rather than being good faith criticism it's Darwinian game theory playing itself out. The problem with Darwinian game theory is that it's end goal seems to be chaos and a place where genes can have a battle royal of all against all without any limiting factors such as truth, reason, or science, and I think if anything this is part of why so many people have a revulsion to truth, reason, or science - they get in the way of what they really want to do. The other thing that really sucks, our media - especially in the US being advertising-driven, loves the selacious and lurid, so we're tuning our populace not for valid and high-quality critique of internal structures as well as what other countries are doing right or wrong in the sense of absolute reality, rather we're being tuned - by our media and by the stress of automation and job loss - toward that Darwinian zombie apocalypse scenario where John Stuart Mill falls and Tiamat rises.

Please understand I mean nothing personal to the intentions of the OP with the above statements, they're just my general observation of what dynamics are at play in the world right now and the kinds of focus Israel gets seems to fit archetypal / mytho-poetic thinking better than analytic thought. There's also the issue of what 'strength' is in the middle east, ie. that one can only make peace from a position of strength and thus you can only offer peace in a meaningful way if you've kicked someone else's arse in a military conflict. We've seen how the process of trying to democratize Iraq has gone, ie. very mixed results and we did not find a people who were western secular humanists simply waiting to be freed from a dictator. This is what scares me probably the most about where we're at - ie. loads of technological leverage, increasing every day, to take decisive actions that have no grounding in reality (other than the grounding of human desire).

Also I get that with the above I said nothing substantive or specific about Israel's actions in Palestine or influences on other countries politically. If anyone thinks there's enough specifics to justify seeing Israel more through the lens that we see China or Russia please feel free to unpack that, I'd be interested in going over those details. I think my main complaint here - most people aren't coming at this one from that degree of information and no doubt if you have that kind of information you'll find most people who are anti-Israel would probably ignore you because your facts have little or nothing to do with what's making up their thought processes on the issue.


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05 Jun 2020, 8:21 am

BTDT wrote:
Are you OK with the way the USA separates immigrant families?
Are you okay with derailing threads to suit your own political agenda?


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BTDT
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05 Jun 2020, 8:29 am

Fnord wrote:
BTDT wrote:
Are you OK with the way the USA separates immigrant families?
Are you okay with derailing threads to suit your own political agenda?

I'd actually prefer not to but I think it is like face blindness. What I think is relevant at the time may not be. It is what it is.

Perhaps I should lurk more. And ignore those that complain that nobody responds to their posts.
It does seem pretty clear that I have a few characteristics of autism.



BenderRodriguez
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05 Jun 2020, 8:51 am

BTDT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
BTDT wrote:
Are you OK with the way the USA separates immigrant families?
Are you okay with derailing threads to suit your own political agenda?

I'd actually prefer not to but I think it is like face blindness. What I think is relevant at the time may not be. It is what it is.

Perhaps I should lurk more. And ignore those that complain that nobody responds to their posts.
It does seem pretty clear that I have a few characteristics of autism.


It's not a bad suggestion that people look more closely into their own back-yard before throwing stones at others - if that was your intention.


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envirozentinel
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05 Jun 2020, 10:04 am

Temporarily locked until further inspection.


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