Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an Auto-Antonym

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magz
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28 Jun 2020, 6:41 am

Bradleigh wrote:
What can't you say in Europe because you would be thrown into prison for years, that you can say in America?

I'm curious of this, too. I think you can go to prison for seriously threatning to harm someone. Defamation is usually settled by public apology but I guess there may be some extreme cases that would end one in jail.
I heard some gossip about a priest in Sweden who ended in a jail - not for "years", Swedes tend to give short sentences if any - for an anti-LGBT sermon but I never learned the details. Most certainly, it couldn't have happened in this part of Europe so you could always flee to Poland :P


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Wolfram87
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28 Jun 2020, 6:47 am

Yeah, Åke Green. He's a Westboro Baptist Church-style nutjob who sticks swords into Pokémon for what I'm sure are perfectly sane reasons pertaining to demons (or something). He was sentenced to a month in prison by the lowest courts, then acquitted by both the higher courts in sequence. The charge was agitation against a population group for a sermon in which he called homosexuals "abnormal, a horrible cancerous tumor in the body of society.".


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magz
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28 Jun 2020, 6:49 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
(...) But somehow, whenever the issue is raised around here, it always results in changes and increased restrictions for legal gun owners, because some joker got a hold of an old Makarov pistol and shot some other joker. But it's much easier to just dump on the most law-abiding group of people (legal gun-owners) and be seen as doing something about the issue instead of dealing with the smuggled guns and actually do something about the issue.

It's a general problem here, like decreasing speed limit on some road from 50 km/h to 40 km/h because some idiot rode 120 km/h there and killed someone.


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magz
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28 Jun 2020, 7:00 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Yeah, Åke Green. He's a Westboro Baptist Church-style nutjob who sticks swords into Pokémon for what I'm sure are perfectly sane reasons pertaining to demons (or something). He was sentenced to a month in prison by the lowest courts, then acquitted by both the higher courts in sequence. The charge was agitation against a population group for a sermon in which he called homosexuals "abnormal, a horrible cancerous tumor in the body of society.".

I'm not into jailing people for such speech because it makes them martyrs among the like-minded... but I wish even the conservatists recognized others as human beings, even if - according to their beliefs - sinners.


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Wolfram87
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28 Jun 2020, 7:02 am

The sentence was overturned on appeal, so he never went to prison. Of which I'm glad, even if the man's a nutjob.


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magz
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28 Jun 2020, 7:08 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
The sentence was overturned on appeal, so he never went to prison. Of which I'm glad, even if the man's a nutjob.

So the question of what speech "can throw you in prison for years" in Europe but not in America remains open.


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Wolfram87
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28 Jun 2020, 7:15 am

I think Germany has some pretty hefty punishments for Nazi stuff, but I don't know any details on that.


Edit:



Wikipedia wrote:
In Germany, Volksverhetzung ("incitement to hatred") is a punishable offense under Section 130 of the Strafgesetzbuch (Germany's criminal code) and can lead to up to five years' imprisonment.[35] Section 130 makes it a crime to publicly incite hatred against parts of the population or to call for violent or arbitrary measures against them or to insult, maliciously slur or defame them in a manner violating their (constitutionally protected) human dignity. Thus for instance it is illegal to publicly call certain ethnic groups "maggots" or "freeloaders".[36] Volksverhetzung is punishable in Germany even if committed abroad and even if committed by non-German citizens, if only the incitement of hatred takes effect within German territory, e.g., the seditious sentiment was expressed in German writing or speech and made accessible in Germany (German criminal code's Principle of Ubiquity, Section 9 §1 Alt. 3 and 4 of the Strafgesetzbuch).

On June 30, 2017, Germany approved a bill criminalizing hate speech on social media sites. Among criminalizing hate speech, the law states that social networking sites may be fined up to €50 million (US$56 million) if they persistently fail to remove illegal content within a week, including defamatory "fake news".[37]



Quote:
Although freedom of speech is mentioned by Article 5 of the Grundgesetz (Germany's constitution), said article basically protects any non-outlawed speech. Restrictions exist, e.g. against personal insults, use of symbols of unconstitutional organizations, or Volksverhetzung. It is a common misconception that Volksverhetzung includes any spreading of Nazism, racist, or other discriminatory ideas. For any hate speech to be punishable as Volksverhetzung, the law requires that said speech be "qualified for disturbing public peace" either by inciting "hatred against parts of the populace" or calling for "acts of violence or despotism against them", or by attacking "the human dignity of others by reviling, maliciously making contemptible or slandering parts of the populace".


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magz
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28 Jun 2020, 7:46 am

Well, the Germans have the courage to admit they were the bad guys and they don't want to repeat it.
I like the way Volksverhetzung is defined, it's close to my personal idea of tolerability of various opinions. I guess it gets stretched every direction in popular use but my personal boundary is - I can't tolerate dehumanization of anyone, even the worst criminals.


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28 Jun 2020, 8:01 am

magz wrote:
Well, the Germans have the courage to admit they were the bad guys and they don't want to repeat it.
I like the way Volksverhetzung is defined, it's close to my personal idea of tolerability of various opinions. I guess it gets stretched every direction in popular use but my personal boundary is - I can't tolerate dehumanization of anyone, even the worst criminals.


I have a problem with people rubbing the noses of German descendants into past atrocities.
This "Collective Guilt" concept is infantile.
An intellectual absurdity.
The Jews suffered under the same nonsense.



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28 Jun 2020, 8:03 am

Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
Well, the Germans have the courage to admit they were the bad guys and they don't want to repeat it.
I like the way Volksverhetzung is defined, it's close to my personal idea of tolerability of various opinions. I guess it gets stretched every direction in popular use but my personal boundary is - I can't tolerate dehumanization of anyone, even the worst criminals.

I have a problem with people rubbing the noses of German descendants into past atrocities.
This "Collective Guilt" concept is infantile.
An intellectual absurdity.
The Jews suffered under the same nonsense.

But legislation aimed at preventing it from happening again seems completely reasonable to me, even if - as all human laws I know of - not infallible.


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28 Jun 2020, 8:10 am

magz wrote:
Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
Well, the Germans have the courage to admit they were the bad guys and they don't want to repeat it.
I like the way Volksverhetzung is defined, it's close to my personal idea of tolerability of various opinions. I guess it gets stretched every direction in popular use but my personal boundary is - I can't tolerate dehumanization of anyone, even the worst criminals.

I have a problem with people rubbing the noses of German descendants into past atrocities.
This "Collective Guilt" concept is infantile.
An intellectual absurdity.
The Jews suffered under the same nonsense.

But legislation aimed at preventing it from happening again seems completely reasonable to me, even if - as all human laws I know of - not infallible.


I would never argue with you, my queen. :mrgreen:
And I wasn't here.

I am working through some issues that have recently immerged, as a result of refection on some suppressed early memories. 8)

I have my opinions, in regard to freedom of speech, but that is for another post.

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28 Jun 2020, 8:28 am

magz wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
What can't you say in Europe because you would be thrown into prison for years, that you can say in America?

I'm curious of this, too. I think you can go to prison for seriously threatning to harm someone. Defamation is usually settled by public apology but I guess there may be some extreme cases that would end one in jail.
I heard some gossip about a priest in Sweden who ended in a jail - not for "years", Swedes tend to give short sentences if any - for an anti-LGBT sermon but I never learned the details. Most certainly, it couldn't have happened in this part of Europe so you could always flee to Poland :P


Stateside, freedom of speech, expression and publication runs through the veins of every U.S. resident. There are no laws preventing members of the Westboro Baptist Church, to use one infamous example, from holding signs above their heads that say, "God hates Muslims." In the U.K., a public sign declaring those statements could land you in prison for two years.

a 19-year-old woman was convicted of sending a "grossly offensive" message after she posted rap lyrics that included the N-word on her Instagram page. Where, also in April, a Scottish shitposter was found guilty of a hate crime for teaching a pug to do a Nazi salute and posting the footage on YouTube. Where in recent years individuals have been arrested and in some cases imprisoned for making racist comments or just cracking tasteless jokes on Twitter.

Scottow, a resident of Hertfordshire, England, was handcuffed in front of her autistic ten-year-old daughter and breastfeeding 20-month-old son, brought into custody and held for seven hours in a single jail cell. What heinous action warranted such drastic measures? The crime of “misgendering,” or calling a transgender individual by their biologically determined set of pronouns instead of their preferred pronouns, precipitated Scottow’s arrest. Stephanie Hayden, a biological male who recently transitioned to identifying as female on social media, reported Scottow to the police.

France’s highest court upheld the criminal conviction of 12 pro-Palestinian activists for violating restrictions against hate speech. Their crime? Wearing T-shirts that advocated a boycott of Israel — “Long live Palestine, boycott Israel,” the shirts read — which, the court ruled, violated French law that “prescribes imprisonment or a fine of up to $50,000

In 2012, a British Muslim teenager, Azhar Ahmed, was arrested for committing a “racially aggravated public order offence.” His crime? After British soldiers were killed in Afghanistan, he cited on his Facebook page the countless innocent Afghans killed by British soldiers and wrote: “All soldiers should DIE & go to HELL! THE LOWLIFE F*****N SCUM! gotta problem go cry at your soldiers grave & wish him hell because that where he is going.”

In 2010, a militant atheist was given a six-month suspended sentence for leaving anti-Christian and anti-Islam fliers in a religious room of the Liverpool airport; according to the BBC, “jurors found him guilty of causing religiously aggravated intentional harassment.”

Christian hoteliers Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang, accused by a Muslim patron of calling Muhammad a "warlord", were charged, but ultimately acquitted

In 2001, several Danish politicians were convicted under this provision for allegedly making "anti-Islamic" statements. More recently, in June 2010, the Danish crown prosecutor sought to lift MP Jesper Langballe's parliamentary immunity so that he could face charges under Article 266(b) for publishing an article about the creeping "Islamisation of Europe" and the subjugated status of Muslim women.

France: In 2002, four Muslim organizations filed a complaint against author Michel Houellebecq for stating that Islam was "stupid" and "dangerous" in an interview. Although the court acquitted Houellebecq, it refrained from doing so on free speech grounds. In 2005, politician Jean Marie Le Pen, runner-up in the 2002 presidential election, was convicted of inciting racial hatred for comments made to Le Monde in 2003 about the consequences of Muslim immigration in France. And in 2008, actress Brigitte Bardot was haled into court and convicted on charges of inciting racial hatred for her criticism concerning the ritual slaughter of sheep during a Muslim feast. Bardot was ordered to pay €15,000, the fifth time she was fined for inciting racial hatred against Muslims since 1997.

The book discusses over 30 “hate speech” cases and includes an up-to-date compendium containing hundreds of European “hate speech” laws. For example, in Germany, committing an “insult” is a criminal offense; in Poland “offending religious feelings” carries a two-year prison sentence; and in Sweden anyone who “expresses contempt” towards a group of persons may be imprisoned. Key European “hate speech” legal cases highlighted in the book: In June 2004, Swedish pastor Åke Green was sentenced by a district court to one month in prison for preaching a sermon on the biblical teaching against homosexual behavior. Green’s offence was expressing “contempt” or “disrespect” for a group of people. In March 2009, Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang, owners of a hotel, were charged with breaching Section 5 of Britain’s Public Order Act after a Muslim guest complained she was insulted by the owner’s breakfast conversation on religion. In December 2010, Helmut Griese, a 63-year-old retiree, was charged under section 188 of the Austrian Criminal Code for “disparagement of religious symbols.” His offence was yodeling in his garden--an act his Muslim neighbors claimed was an attempt to mock their faith.



It looks like I could go on all day. There's a long list on the internet.

If the laws are on the books, they're on the books. If person X or Y was acquitted on a particular charge or case was dismissed on a technicality and person X or Y didn't actually go to jail that doesn't mean the person Zed couldn't go to jail).

Also, I have no idea if the above links are from right leaning, left leaning, center, up, down or twirling around in circles leaning sites. If the articles are citing facts, it matters not what site the info is coming from. There's a propensity with some here to discount information based on which site it originated from. In regard to facts it's akin to disbelieving someone who is telling you that your car is on fire because that person happens to hold radical ideological beliefs or biases you're opposed to.



Last edited by Magna on 28 Jun 2020, 9:00 am, edited 4 times in total.

magz
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28 Jun 2020, 8:53 am

I just researched the case of Ms Scottow from other sources than this one article... nope, it wasn't just misgendering. It was breaking her previous signed agreement to leave the person alone on social media.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... g-wig.html
I guess I could dig into every such case... media tend to notorously slant stories to make them appear more dramatic and "prove" some agenda.


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28 Jun 2020, 9:02 am

magz wrote:
I just researched the case of Ms Scottow from other sources than this one article... nope, it wasn't just misgendering. It was breaking her previous signed agreement to leave the person alone on social media.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... g-wig.html
I guess I could dig into every such case... media tend to notorously slant stories to make them appear more dramatic and "prove" some agenda.


Thanks, Magz. I think that would be great if we could pick apart each of the cases cited to establish their validity or lack thereof. I welcome you to continue with the research or anyone else so inclined.



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28 Jun 2020, 9:31 am

When it comes to notorious Internet trolls, I think it's a valid question: when protection from harassment outweights freedom of speech. British court found Ms Scottow guilty but not jail-worthy, justifying their decision by "deliberate" nature of her tweets "to cause distress". https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... weets.html
Apart from the transgender part of it, notorious trolling seems to be the thing.

On one end of the spectrum, we have concerns over freedom of expression. On the other end, there are suicides triggered by notorious trolling. It's a serious and not easy matter.


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28 Jun 2020, 9:33 am

aghogday wrote:
Hey, I Live in the Deep South, so i do Understand
Systematic Racism is Alive And Well; Just A Trip to the Northern
Part of my County At A Southern Baptist Pastor's Family Dinner on
The Grounds As Opportunity Allows me as a Participant Anthropologist Observer
To Watch the 'Group Think of Racism' Flourishing Having No Idea That i Oppose
the Ideology Through And Through; Until i Stand Against The Whole Crowd And
Use The 'Love of Their Religion' To Show Them the 'Real Fools' they Still Are;
As People Still Say the Most Ignorant Stuff As Close as my Wife's Relatives
That 'Mud-Mix' is something 'Trademark God' Is Against When two Colors Come Together
and create
Variety
'That Way';
NOTHING HAS
CHANGED HERE, NOW,
in THOSE places except
'Civilians' at least usually
can't get away with Killing
Black Folks Now for Sport.
'Funny' How One can get away
With Opposing Racism, Face to
Group Think Racism Faces, when one Leg Presses
1340 Pounds, 12 Reps in 100 Seconds
Very Slowly at 90 Degrees And is
Proficient in Martial Arts
for 13,323 Miles of Public
Dance That is actually Martial Arts Practice;
With No Other 'Weapons', 'They' Understand' Base Animal Instincts; but
'They'/US Overall have Yet to Evolve to the Love 'Their' 'Religion' At Core Professes FOR ALL.

i Have no Idea if you Believe Systematic Racism is Real or Not; BUT IT
IS REAL in the area that was in Record Books at one Point for having the
Most 'Christian' Churches Per Square Mile with upwards of 85 Percent
of the Locality Still Supporting the 'Orange Fool'; who is truly Sponsoring, in Effect,
Mass Murder in Illness through defunding Tests for the Covid19 Virus as Promised
When He was speaking to the kinda folks who Live Where i do in Trump Town USA.

i've Watched This Ignorance for 60 Years Now even before i could speak at age 4;
But You See it comes from the Same Socio-Economic Disparity that is NO color at all;
'These Folks' are Poor and Ignorant; And Don't See the same advantages of Life; Yes, the
'White Folks' Here in Trump Town USA and as Ugly as Human Nature Gets they Just Look
to Raise themselves Up by Stomping On some other Category they Create of Life to see as Lower.

It's Impossible to separate and fix this Problem Based alone on Categories of Black And White;
The Entire Society is Sick, Losing any Meaning and Purpose and Social Roles as All Lives
continue to devolve into Chaos of No Meaning and Purpose With Fewer Social Roles that Bond Folks together.

The Religion Here in Some Areas is Fear and Hate; It has No Color and the only Fix is Love.

i am Not so Foolish to think that i have any Solution to Cure this Overall Virus; the
Virus of Human Nature Out of Balance With the Rest of Nature; Folks Will
Change what they can and will to Improve Life.

But The Fact is the Rest of
Nature Is Sick and Tired
of All Humans
Raping,
Maiming,
And Killing the
Rest of Nature
Out of Balance;
What We See as Hell;
The Rest of Nature Sees
As Balance without Seeing at all;
What We Fail to Understand Is We
are all Just 'Energy' in Balance or Out of Balance.
But that isn't gonna solve the Problems either.
Honestly, the Only Thing that will Solve the
Problem is Humans Living in Smaller Groups.
We Are Just Not Evolved to Live the Way We do;
and Are all Paying some price.

Change What We Can
And Accept the Rest;
Meanwhile some
folks
are
satisfied
with their 'White Churches';
as the politically incorrect
Answer is Humans Naturally
Mostly Bond with Folks who are similar
in almost Every Way Existence; there is no escape from Nature, overall.

Further South in the County where it is Still Small Enough but 'Smarter';
There is Peace And Harmony Here among most all.

Location; Location; Location;

Ya Gotta Find Heaven;
It isn't everywhere and that's for Damn Sure.

Those Who Escape Hell May indeed find it;
It's what Nomads do; Eventually they just might find a Garden of Eden in Balance.

We Live in a Very Disgruntled World, Overall.
i Live in a Forest; The Birds, The Squirrels, The Flowers See No Color But Life; and so do i.

In Short, 'Get
Out of the F in
Big Cities and Choose Your 'Woods' Carefully.

That's Only My answer and it works for me;
We Are Fortunate if We Can, Will, And Do ever even Fix our Own issues.

Most People Are Just Trying to get Through each Day; The Protests are an alternate
Religion Where People are gaining Social Roles and Group Cohesion with Meaning and Purpose;
the Environment is Ripe for A New Religion; It's Always About Religion; Everything Social Animals Do is the
Religion of Bonding together or Not over Common Meaning and Purpose And Social Roles That Keep Us Thriving
or just Breathing barely...
even
Mice
or Men...
Social Animals Do
This No Matter Color of Skin or Fur...
Reference: John B. Calhoun's Experiment on 'Rodent Utopia'....

Common Meaning And Purpose; Social Roles Working Together
For Survival: Religion that Works
that's the Solution.

It's working Good
Enough For the
'Black And White Churches' to Survive, Overall for Now;
Some of them Flourish in All Colors And Shades, so Beautiful They are....
THRIVING ALL COLORS OF LOVE it always takes Blood, Sweat, And Tears, in all Forests....

When something Ain't Cool, Ya Speak up and Express
Emotions; Emotions Are What Changes Human Motion in All We do;
'That was the
Last Day
the
Mud
Mix Remark
Was Made';
if only for the
Strength of my Legs; so be it....
Whatever Works for Change You Do It now; at least i Do...



aghogday, you have a strange way of writing. It has a pattern to it. This becomes more evident when you lay it on one side. I couldn't quite see it for awhile. But I could see it yesterday.

I have an oximeter that I use to measure the oxygen content in my blood. The unit also provides a pictorial of my heart rate. So the way you are writing is very similar to a beating heart.


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