Trump's collusion with Russia: a unique perspective

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The debate on whether Trump colluded with Russia has two main opinions:

Opinion 1: Trump colluded with Russia and, therefore, he is a bad person
Opinion 2: Trump dind't collude with Russia, and he is a good person

However, I am of "Opinion 3", which is the following:

Opinion 3: Trump colluded with Russia, and thats a point in his favor

I am not saying he is a good person, by the way. I mean the way he bragged about sexually harrassing women and the way he handle COVID 19 is awful. But the "specific" issue of him colluding with Russia is a positive. Thats why I was careful to say "thats the point in his favor" instead of saying "that makes him a good person".

Now, if you ask "why" its the point in his favor, here are three main reasons:

a) USA historically had very bad relationship with Russia. As someone born in Russia who came to the US when I was 14, I always felt bad about it. Now, if US president goes as far as "colluding" with Russia, thats a very strong point that he happens to like Russia. Now you might say that its one thing if US president decides to make Russia into their political allies (which is fine and well) and its a completely different thing if US president breaks the law (as in the collusion situation). But I feel like breaking the law would make the point of liking Russia even stronger. Now, normally I would say "a stronger point isn't worth it when it comes to breaking the law": for example, its nice that US has good relations with Britain, but if I see US President entering unlawful collusion with Britain, I would say it would be a bad thing. But in case of Russia the situation is different: with Russia the US/Russia relations have been horrible for such a long time that I am basically starved of seeing good US/Russia relations. Thats why I would say "any and every way of emphasizing the good relations is worth it, even unlawful collusion".

b) It is also good that it was REPUBLICAN president who got elected through collusion with Russia as opposed to democrat one. The reason I say this is that Republican party is the one that is represented by US patriots. So a collusion between far-right Republican and Russia would symbolize the joining together of American patriotism and Russian patriotism. Since the two countries have been opposed to each other for such a long time, the fact that the patriots of these two countries joined hands is very symbolic of the fact that the situation changed for the better. You see, if the democrats were to collude with Russia, then one could say "well, American values and Russian values are still opposite, its just that Democrats aren't that loyal to American values". But if Republicans collude with Russia (and especially if it is someone far-right like Trump as opposed to lukewarm like Romney) then it says "yes, both sides are still loyal to their values, so now we see that those values are no longer opposed but instead go hand in hand", which is good.

c) Look at how many times US interfered in the foreign policies of other countries, including Iraq and so forth. So it is nice to "even the score" a bit. No, this didn't even the score, since US interference in foreign affairs is far more long-standing than a single event of Russian collusion with Trump. But still, it brings the score from 10/0 to 10/1, which is nice.

In any case, despite the fact that points a,b,c kinda stare into your face, I don't think anyone ever noticed them besides me. Or even if they did, I think I am the only one who holds "Opinion 3" instead of Opinions 1 and 2 like most people.

Noam Chomsky has already argued something like your "c". That the US has meddled in countless other countries, and after the fall of communism even meddled in Russia itself ( and did so brazenly and without even concealing the fact).

Therefore.... something...I am not sure what conclusion Chomsky was arguing.

But thats a fallacious argument for whatever it was he was arguing. Its like saying "The British Empire has invaded more countries than other other nation, therefore back in 1940, the Brits had no right to defend themselves from Hitler".

So we meddled in Russia at one time? Doesnt mean that Trump might not still be considered a dangerous traitor by us American voters if he really is a tool of Putin.

As for A it amounts to you saying X is a desireable thing, therefore its okay to get X even if you have to steal it. X being "better relations between Russia and the US".

Hmmmm..... So if I wanna be your best friend its okay for me to buy your friendship by giving you an expensive gift ( like an Italian sports car) by..stealing one of your credit cards, and paying for your gift with your own stolen credit card?

Maybe. Nothing says "I love you" like...identity theft, and credit car fraud!

I will hafta ponder that one for a while.

Last edited by naturalplastic on 21 Jul 2020, 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I’ve seen a few people say both “it’s ok to interfere in elections” and “it’s good to get on with Russia”.

Getting on well with Russia is like reorganising science funding: everyone tries to do it, everyone doesn’t make a difference. Remember Obama’s “Russian reset” or the way Romney was mocked for saying Russia was a threat? But it has been a theme all the way back to Reagan (who arguably did the best job at it).

Have relations with Russia actually improved under Trump? Probably not? Russia is still openly interfering in the elections of other countries and launched a chemical weapon attack against the UK. There has been no new Russian misadventures in other countries, but also no progress in reversing their various annexations and puppet states. Chechnya is still a s**tshow and Russia is still terrible on LGBT rights and political freedom.

Tickled by the suggestion that Russia is historically less imperialist than the US. Not only has Russia literally had an empire, but the Soviet Union was a giant exercise in imperialism, Russia keeps peeling territory away from neighbouring countries, and Central Asia and the Arab world are full of Russian-backed puppet rulers. By all means criticise America for its attempts (justified and otherwise) at regime change, but don’t ignore Russia’s equally long and chequered history of doing the exact same thing.

I can sympathize with a Russian national viewing Russia as the underdog vis-a-vis the US. Just like I can sympathize with a Vietnamese taking pride in how little Vietnam managed to beat the US in a war. But though Vietnam kicked the US out of their own country, Vietnam did not cross the sea and install a puppet president to govern the US.

And as Walrus said, Russia under the Czars was the second largest colonial empire on the planet, right after the British Empire, and it continued to be that under the Soviets.

And further (unlike the colonial empires of France and Britain which shedded their empires after WWII) the Russian colonial empire continued intact until the fall of Communism in 1991. And thats not even counting Soviet imperialism beyond the borders that it inherited from the Czars, like their domination of the Iron Curtain countries of Eastern Europe after WWII, and their establishing of client states around the world during the Cold War.

You forgot option d)Trump sold out to Putin for personal gain. Putin is not Russia, he merely commands it. Trump is not America either. What's good for either of them need not be good for the countries they command or the relationship between them, and the resulting rumor of Putin meddling in American national politics certainly didn't help the sentiments of the population. Rather the opposite, I'd say.

Opinion 4 Trump is a horrible person who did not collude with Russia

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Every intelligence agency in the US agrees that there was Russian interference in our election.

Trump goes to heroic efforts to weaken America and weaken our alliances in ways that just happened to benefit Russia. And he does this in defiance of his own GOP (which is even more anti Russian than is the Democratic Party).

So Trump gives the impression that he is commiting massive malfeasance against America at the behest of Putin.

So if you're going to put forth this theory that this malfeasance just LOOKS like malfeasance, but is really just massive innocent misfeasance that just happens to benefit Russia at the expense of the US, then you better present some evidence for this extraordinary claim. OK. Its hard to prove a negative. But at least accompany your theory with a possible explanation for WHY Trump is goes to bat for Putin's interests without him colluding with Putin? If Trump is not Putin's stooge, then why does he act like Putin's stooge?

Interference =/= collusion... Russia could interfere in many ways that may favor one side or the other, but that interference requires cooperation or an agreement (which thus far no investigation has found) to even approach collusion.

At present (based on all the investigations performed), the interference appears to have just been a happy coincidence for Mr Trump's campaign, and not something mutually arranged.

Trump takes Russia’s side in the Russian-Ukrainian conflict.

That would have been unconscionable under any previous American President—Democrat or Republican.

The past is the past and past wrongs are past wrongs.

It's still wrong to collude with Russia and it wouldn't surprise me if Trump did it,but so did Biden being that Biden has never condemned his son for his behavior in Russia.It makes Biden guilty by omission because if he supports what his son did in Russia than it's no different.

I don't think whatever Trump did however wrong, is reason to vote for the equally guilty Biden

This entire Hoax was an attempt to sabotage Trumps presidency. There was no collusion with Russia. The Meuller report found none. The only interference in the campaign was Hillary's dirty dossier that was designed as an excuse for her defeat.

Really?

Thats one helluva "coincidence". So Trump is defying his own party just to make life easy for Putin to put bounties on American solders, and undermine NATO, for reasons OTHER than colluding with Putin.

So what ARE those reasons then?

Equally guilty of colluding with Putin?

The GOP part underlines the reason 2 of why I say its a good thing. You see, a lot of Republicans adapt Trump's point of view on various things -- including Russia. The opinion polls show that, before Trump, Republicans hated Russa more than Democrats (like you said) but after Trump, Democrats hate Russia more than Republicans. Since Republicans represent American patriotism, making Republicans pro-Russia would allign the two patriotisms, which is a good thing.

And I am not saying annihilate the two, I am saying allign them so that they can strengthen each other. Because you see, both American patriotism and Russian patriotism are based on Christian values. But neither side recognizes this. Americans think that America is the number one Christian nation in the world and assume Russians are secular. Russians on the other hand think that Russia is the main Christian nation in the world and assume Americans are secular. So each country opposes the other in the name of Christianity. But wouldn't it be nice if both countries realized that they are both Christian and were to join together to oppose the rest of the world?

Actually, shortly before Trump took office I read on the internet that some Western Europeans were, in fact, afraid that Russia and America would join together to oppose them. But, as I was reading it, I was thinking it would be wonderful if that were to happen. But at the same time, something was telling me it was too good to be true. And apparently I was right. But still its nice to take one baby step in that direction.

He tried to, but didn't succeed. He wanted to lift the sanctions against Russia but then others forced him to strengthen these sanctions instead.

This is too bad. I really wish he were to succeed in lifting those sanctions and so forth.



That is precisely why I see it as a good thing. We need some positive US-Russia relations in order to compensate for all the negativity in the past.

I specifically said it was an opinion. I did not say it was a claim.

The Trump administration has taken a number of actions harmful to Russian interests.

IMHO Trump's actions that have disrupted our alliances and helped was not based on collusion or a spoken or unspoken conspiracy with Putin but because he gets his jollies disrupting things especially those things the most of the powerful hold dear or powerful agree with.


He is the president the others not. The others can't literally force him to lift or impose sanctions. If the others convinced him to do something he was really against that makes him a weak person.