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shlaifu
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20 Jul 2020, 6:52 pm

So... I was thinking: Marxism is all about blaming the system, but cancel culture is about blaming the individual....

Basically, if there's not enough diversity in a company, Marxist logic would look at the education system, wealth distribution, college fees. But cancel culture looks at the HR guy who has ten people to pick from, only one black, and picks one if the nine white persons.
And he's supposed to be the racist. Or sexist, or whatever.

Cancel culture isn't leftism, really but it follows the conservative attitude of "a few bad apples" - if you get rid of the few individuals that are at fault, then the system will work.

Is it possible the wokescolds are so far away from what leftist thought is sbout that they are actually *thinking* in conservative terms -religious, even... After all, an individual relationship with god is the core of protestantism- when looking for what exactly needs to change?


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Fnord
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20 Jul 2020, 6:55 pm

shlaifu wrote:
... Cancel culture isn't leftism, really but it follows the conservative attitude of "a few bad apples" - if you get rid of the few individuals that are at fault, then the system will work...
Sometimes, when all else has failed, the only way left to improve morale is to get rid of all the sad people.


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aghogday
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20 Jul 2020, 8:05 pm



My God Systematic Oppression Is
So Easy to Escape Just Let Other
People Have THeir Gods; And
Don't Buy What
We Don't Have
to For 'Money' Free,
And Other 'ReLiGioNS'
Free; Honestly, It's Not
That Hard Now if One
Generates 'Gold' From
Within; Being Financially
Independent A Necessity
And By 'Real God of Nature'
This Country
Is Still Free
Enough
to Be
Totally Free
From Systematic Oppression;
That'S A Definition of Country
That Works for US; but only those SmART
Enough to AcTuAlly Use Freedom For Advantage to Actually Love Life.
i Canceled Culture Long Ago And Still Create My Own; True Life, Liberty
And Pursuit of Happiness Allows This For Only Folks Who Understand NoW
How to Make Life Loving Free; Only What Individuals 'Souly' Do Originally Create.

People Worry About What Other
Folks Are Saying And Doing So Much;
They Never Even Come to Dance And Sing
Naked And Free; Birds With Wings Now Have

So Much More to See;

But True, Not Everyone
Comes to TasTE A ReAL GoLDEN AGE.

'Founding Fathers And Or Mothers' Make
'This' Possible; 'Children' Lose Sight of What Free Even Is...
So Lost in 'Stuff'...

So Lost,
So Lost,
in 'WaLMarT STuFF';

How Fortunate We aRe
To LiVE iN A Date And A
Place WHeRe A Golden Age
Is Even Possible; How Folks Lose this
Opportunity to Fully Breathe And Fly
to ACTuaLLY SeLF ACTuATE Seeing HeaVeNoW. i For one 'JusT Do IT';
Hey, Even A Shoe Company Understands That Much of How ViCToRY Comes Now.

Some Folks Seek Affirmation;
Other Folks Generate True Freedom Within; in God, Yes, Autotelic Flow Mountain Top Plateau;
So Little oF iT Depends on What Anyone Else Thinks or Feels About Their Version of 'STuFF' Out

THere

SoMeWHere else

Where Systematic Oppression
Rules 'Weak' who don't Understand
Strength of MeeK iNHeRiTinG EartH Free.

True, It's Dancing A Tight Rope Always Without Effort in Heavenly Ease;

For Those Who Believe And Do; By God, So Easy To See From Mountain
Top Plateau; Valleys HigH As Low.

In Short, Fix One's Self;
Let The Dead System
Bury Itself; Enjoy The
Peace One Creates For Oneself; As LonG as
One Will Make It Last EternAlly Now; Or Do Not;
Some Folks Dance Free; Some Folks Sing Free;
Some Folks Do Not; That's Life From A Top oF A Bottom now too...

Hehe; i Had a 36-Year Dancing Woman Friend From the Old Disco Days
of the Late 70's And Early 80's, Who FB 'Let me go', After Calling Out
The Trump Covid-19 Dangerous Ignorance In Lies She Was Teaching;
Previously, She Called Me Out When i played This Alan Parsons Song
Saying there is No 'Genesis Chapter 1, Verse 32'; i told Her my God
Creates
Free
Verse
Poetry
on 'the 8th Day'; Haha,
She Continued Reading...
for then at least... butt
of course i know Where She Comes 'From'
And Clearly See An Old Testament God She
And All Of Her Other Friends Still WorshipS Orange
in 'Catholic Old Testament Church'; 'Cancel Culture'
Is Just Another Religion, i Nullify Too; Creating my Own Just FoR Me..;)


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League_Girl
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21 Jul 2020, 12:54 am

I think cancel culture will just silence people and they will just learn to keep it to themselves so they won't get cancelled. We can't change peoples minds or force them to believe what we want them to believe. But ignoring them and shunning them sure has power when the majority do it. I have seen people get themselves cancelled on twitter or on a web forum with their bigotry about something. What happened was many of us ignored her and she eventually left the forum. I didn't know about it till about a year later when I saw her mention it on another forum. I guess I wasn't the only one who put her on ignore.

Another time on Twitter, someone said something hurtful and it insulted many of her followers so her followers list dropped a lot and she was also an artist and did commissions so she also lost lot of her customers too. She eventually deleted her account. I guess being cancelled was too much for her even though she still had support. She did apologize for her comment but it was more like " I am sorry but I am so disappointed in how you reacted towards me about my comment" so I didn't see it as a real apology since she was still blaming how people reacted.


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Bradleigh
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21 Jul 2020, 1:25 am

I feel like we need some proper examples of what cancel culture is, whether it is extreme reaction to unfounded accusations, or a community of the public that are trying to ensure that there are proper consequences for actions like saying something irresponsible.

As someone on the Left, that is on the side that J.K. Rowling should be held responsible for spreading conspiracy theories with little basis in reality, that is she should be getting less positive attention while she spreads awful things. I don't think that there really is an illusion that Rowling is uniquely awful, in that I think the system has contributed to Rowling holding her positions and thinking that it is okay to spread it. She did not come to her anti-trans opinions on her own. I think that protest by disowning her for her opinions is a way to protest the problems of the system, and prevent a worsening to it. Of course there could be people that take it too far via more violent language, but that is hardly unique against TERFs, but something done by them too.

I think that the majority of things that you might or might not call part of cancel culture, are actually things that people would call a representation of a problem in the system, at least that is what I see through a feminist lens, whether it may be accurate or not. The act of canceling is an attempt to say that they don't want to support that problem. It is not like a guy who did something racist, probably came to that idea on his own, so making a stand that people won't stand for it regardless of if many people secretly think that way, is I think an intention.

It is why you get those people who complain that you can't make a joke anymore without people being offended. Truth is that it probably should never have been okay to say that, you are just being held accountable now for saying something sh***y.


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Bradleigh
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21 Jul 2020, 1:47 am

shlaifu wrote:
Basically, if there's not enough diversity in a company, Marxist logic would look at the education system, wealth distribution, college fees. But cancel culture looks at the HR guy who has ten people to pick from, only one black, and picks one if the nine white persons.
And he's supposed to be the racist. Or sexist, or whatever.


This smells of a massive strawman, and I think a misrepresentation of what happens.

A recent example I heard was I think of Wizards of the Coast, it was being found that they barely had any non-white staff, and it was not because only white people were applying, but that they would pick less qualified white people over someone of another race. I think that recent example came with some acknowledgment that some Magic the Gathering cards were a little problematic. Now I love Wizards of the Coast, I am a big DnD fan, but I think that there might have been a blind spot to a systematic problem that those hiring may or may not have been aware of, and this may partially be why a Magic card called "Invoke Prejudice" that had a bunch of people in hoods in the picture, took to now to be noted as probably not responsible.

It is really not strange that there can be unconscious bias in the hiring process that can disadvantage certain minority groups. It is not something like 1 black out of a group of 10 not being hired being held as evidence of racism.


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Brictoria
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21 Jul 2020, 2:43 am

League_Girl wrote:
I have seen people get themselves cancelled on twitter or on a web forum with their bigotry about something.


The question then becomes: Who is the bigot in this situation?

Is it the person who says something "unpopular" but is potentially willing to change their mind if presented with facts\information
OR
Is it the mob "cancelling" them for the "unpopular" statement without clarifying what led to the statement being made, nor offering a way to educate them to the "correct" opinion\"belief"\"thoughts"?



Brictoria
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21 Jul 2020, 2:57 am

Bradleigh wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Basically, if there's not enough diversity in a company, Marxist logic would look at the education system, wealth distribution, college fees. But cancel culture looks at the HR guy who has ten people to pick from, only one black, and picks one if the nine white persons.
And he's supposed to be the racist. Or sexist, or whatever.


This smells of a massive strawman, and I think a misrepresentation of what happens.

A recent example I heard was I think of Wizards of the Coast, it was being found that they barely had any non-white staff, and it was not because only white people were applying, but that they would pick less qualified white people over someone of another race. I think that recent example came with some acknowledgment that some Magic the Gathering cards were a little problematic. Now I love Wizards of the Coast, I am a big DnD fan, but I think that there might have been a blind spot to a systematic problem that those hiring may or may not have been aware of, and this may partially be why a Magic card called "Invoke Prejudice" that had a bunch of people in hoods in the picture, took to now to be noted as probably not responsible.

It is really not strange that there can be unconscious bias in the hiring process that can disadvantage certain minority groups. It is not something like 1 black out of a group of 10 not being hired being held as evidence of racism.


Not sure how there could be "unconcious bias" in picking an artist for the cards...All that is really needed would be to request applicants submit artwork for a certain card\subset of cards and then pick the best artist based on their work. There shouldn't really be much need for an in-person interview for a person who is doing "outsourced" work.

Out of curiosity, which cards should I look in my collection for, in order to "destroy"\keep for when prices increase due to artifical "rarity" caused by other's destruction of them?

BTW, Just tracked down one of the more interesting cards from the game's past:
Image



Bradleigh
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21 Jul 2020, 3:00 am

Brictoria wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I have seen people get themselves cancelled on twitter or on a web forum with their bigotry about something.


The question then becomes: Who is the bigot in this situation?

Is it the person who says something "unpopular" but is potentially willing to change their mind if presented with facts\information
OR
Is it the mob "cancelling" them for the "unpopular" statement without clarifying what led to the statement being made, nor offering a way to educate them to the "correct" opinion\"belief"\"thoughts"?


I think that you are providing a bit of a warped presentation of likely situations, because the first person only exists if they are willing to change their mind if presented with facts, because there are plenty of people who might even say that they are, but actually will probably never do so, the type that refuse to take any responsibility for what they said.

You are also assuming that the mob, as you call them, have not been patient up to the current situation. The whole Me Too thing did not come out of nowhere, with no prior warning, in reality there had been a very long time of just expecting people to do better with sexual harassment classes, and minor scandals that would usually blow over. People got very sick about about the light touch that was being used, did not seem to be having people change their actions, just excusing it as a joke.


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Bradleigh
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21 Jul 2020, 3:17 am

Brictoria wrote:
Not sure how there could be "unconcious bias" in picking an artist for the cards...All that is really needed would be to request applicants submit artwork for a certain card\subset of cards and then pick the best artist based on their work. There shouldn't really be much need for an in-person interview for a person who is doing "outsourced" work.


I don't think that it was just artists, Wizards of the Coast is a pretty extensive company. But apparently the artist who made the Invoke Prejudice art was an actual neo Nazi.

The diverse hiring staff would help look over cards and see if some part of it might come across as insensitive. Like a card called I think Crusade that powers up "white" creatures, and one called Cleanse that destroys all "black" creatures. By themselves maybe not on purpose a problem, black and white are just card types, but it can sound a little bit like dog whistles. I believe there was another card that had the word "Gypsies" it, which got removed because the word gypsy is a slur.


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shlaifu
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21 Jul 2020, 4:31 am

Well, I know very little about Wizards of the coast...

I was thinking about these things yesterday, because I was at the end-of-year show of the college I teach at. The whole term was lectures via zoom and the students rarely turned on cameras, so when I actually saw them, only then I realized the diversity among them. When I started teaching it was 80% white men in the course, and now my course reflects pretty much the population average. 50% female, 5% of Turkish decent, the occasional black student.
(I live in one of those European countries)

Of course in the past the question has been raised why there were so few women in the companies I work with.
But from my perspective as college teacher it had always been quite clear that there weren't enough women studying the thing in the first place. That has changed only very recently and I'm guessing I'll see more women in entry level positions in the companies, too.

And then it will take 20 years, and I'm assuming then I'll see more women in top positions in my industry.


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Brictoria
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21 Jul 2020, 4:48 am

Bradleigh wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I have seen people get themselves cancelled on twitter or on a web forum with their bigotry about something.


The question then becomes: Who is the bigot in this situation?

Is it the person who says something "unpopular" but is potentially willing to change their mind if presented with facts\information
OR
Is it the mob "cancelling" them for the "unpopular" statement without clarifying what led to the statement being made, nor offering a way to educate them to the "correct" opinion\"belief"\"thoughts"?


I think that you are providing a bit of a warped presentation of likely situations, because the first person only exists if they are willing to change their mind if presented with facts, because there are plenty of people who might even say that they are, but actually will probably never do so, the type that refuse to take any responsibility for what they said.

You are also assuming that the mob, as you call them, have not been patient up to the current situation. The whole Me Too thing did not come out of nowhere, with no prior warning, in reality there had been a very long time of just expecting people to do better with sexual harassment classes, and minor scandals that would usually blow over. People got very sick about about the light touch that was being used, did not seem to be having people change their actions, just excusing it as a joke.


The problem is that, at least in the present time, "cancellation" is the mandated penalty for the "first offence" according to the mob, with no attempt made to see if the "offender" was open to changing their minds...



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21 Jul 2020, 5:49 am

Brictoria wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
I think that you are providing a bit of a warped presentation of likely situations, because the first person only exists if they are willing to change their mind if presented with facts, because there are plenty of people who might even say that they are, but actually will probably never do so, the type that refuse to take any responsibility for what they said.

You are also assuming that the mob, as you call them, have not been patient up to the current situation. The whole Me Too thing did not come out of nowhere, with no prior warning, in reality there had been a very long time of just expecting people to do better with sexual harassment classes, and minor scandals that would usually blow over. People got very sick about about the light touch that was being used, did not seem to be having people change their actions, just excusing it as a joke.


The problem is that, at least in the present time, "cancellation" is the mandated penalty for the "first offence" according to the mob, with no attempt made to see if the "offender" was open to changing their minds...


I am going to need a source or evidence on that, rather than an assumption that it is the case. You know that apologies are meant to be a litmus test for people showing how likely someone is to change their mind?


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21 Jul 2020, 9:36 am

Social Media, The Human
Beast Yet to Evolve A Soul
To Even Fully Love Itself;
So what Happens; Tiny Souls
Try to Grow by Bringing Other Souls
Down to Smaller Than Their Size; Grade
School All Over Again; High School Never
Ends as Who Wrote What in the High School
Annual; Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, And Others;
Just Another Way
of Never
Growing
Up and
Facing the
Human In the
Mirror And Being Enough;
but You See 'This' Human IS NOT
in the Mirror; This Human IS NOT
IN THE 'TRUMP' NAME or even in
The Words It Pretends to Be;
THIS HUMAN is the
Genuine Feelings
And Senses
This
Human
Experiences
in Total Regulation And
Integration or Looking Somewhere
Else For Something or Someone else
to Fill up What is Vapid Empty Within.
Like Winning A Debate Or Demanding
Attention to Be Somebody When Truly
A Soul in Balance Is Every Thing They Really Are within.
We Canceled Human Souls Long Ago With Vapid Culture; So Lost Still Now
From the Real
Stars We aRE
Flowers and
Seeds We aRe
Within Only
When We
Develop
Light to
Shine that
Is Ours Owing
No Light to Others;
Yet, only to Give and Share
Free; Folks Who Bring other
Folks Down are already down in
the First Place; Just Psychology 101.
What Keeps Us Trapped, 'The Money', in Terms
of Likes, Follows, Shares too; Empty Never FeeLeD From WiTHiN.
Sucker Punched by Those Who Understand 'Psychology 101'; And
Successfully Make others their Slaves. It's Impossible to Subjugate
And Control A Star that Manufactures Its Light Within; it only Shines.


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24 Jul 2020, 4:59 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
I feel like we need some proper examples of what cancel culture is, whether it is extreme reaction to unfounded accusations, or a community of the public that are trying to ensure that there are proper consequences for actions like saying something irresponsible.

As someone on the Left, that is on the side that J.K. Rowling should be held responsible for spreading conspiracy theories with little basis in reality, that is she should be getting less positive attention while she spreads awful things. I don't think that there really is an illusion that Rowling is uniquely awful, in that I think the system has contributed to Rowling holding her positions and thinking that it is okay to spread it. She did not come to her anti-trans opinions on her own. I think that protest by disowning her for her opinions is a way to protest the problems of the system, and prevent a worsening to it. Of course there could be people that take it too far via more violent language, but that is hardly unique against TERFs, but something done by them too.

I think that the majority of things that you might or might not call part of cancel culture, are actually things that people would call a representation of a problem in the system, at least that is what I see through a feminist lens, whether it may be accurate or not. The act of canceling is an attempt to say that they don't want to support that problem. It is not like a guy who did something racist, probably came to that idea on his own, so making a stand that people won't stand for it regardless of if many people secretly think that way, is I think an intention.

It is why you get those people who complain that you can't make a joke anymore without people being offended. Truth is that it probably should never have been okay to say that, you are just being held accountable now for saying something sh***y.

I can do that. A boycott for instance I don't see as cancel culture. I personally think you should separate the work from the author, but people should be able to choose not to buy things for whatever reason they want and they can tell others and try to get them to do the same. Cancel culture in JKs case would be things like trying to get her banned from Twitter and other such deplatforming, harassing her or her followers, trying to get her products pulled from shelves and trying to stop her being able to produce future work. It would also be something like banning people from a forum for talking positively about her or even just for mentioning her name.



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25 Jul 2020, 3:29 am

Cancel culture takes another victim — Trader Joe’s, now woke Trader Joe’s

The grocer takes orders from a 17 year old - reads the sub-headline.


Are there any adults left in the building?
We’ve either been too busy working or standing by negligent to our American Left, hard at work successfully transforming young Americans’ screen minds for two generations in a growing whirlwind.
Politicizing food, arts, sports, everything under the sun, is incremental Fabian Socialism cleave cresting now, dividing Americans three months before election.
Is it the rioters, looters, arsonists and their elitist enablers
⏤Long ready revisionists, who for two generations have never built anything, taking down statues of those that have
And long hard at work Orwellian-redefining our words with revisionist history which will now define who we are?

There are no gun-related homicides in Venezuela or North Korea or the whole island of Cuba because the citizenry has no firearms at all, oppressed without Liberty and living inescapable misery.