What constitutes "white supremacy"?

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Brictoria
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05 Aug 2020, 9:04 pm

I would disagree:

Quote:

Racism:
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes.

Quote:

White supremacy:
The belief that white people are superior to those of other races and therefore should be dominant over them

The difference being the "White supremacy" has the requirement of believing that white people should be dominant over those of other races, which wasn't present in the examples. Without this (supremacy) component (which was not demonstrated in the examples supplied initially), "White supremacy" is not the appropriate definition.

With that said, in your addition\clarification:

Fnord wrote:

Brictoria wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

Examples of white supremacy are: Feeling threatened by inclusion by work places wanting to include minorities more by hiring more of them so they are a diverse work place

Nope - No "Supremecy" there (a KEY part of the term "White supremacy") - May possibly indicate "subconcious racism", "racial bias", or similar, however.

LG is right. I personally knew people in the workplace who felt threatened every time we hired a non-white person for his/her qualifications. Some came right out and claimed that (1) Since the company was started by white people, only white people should have jobs there, or (2) Only white people deserved to have well-paying jobs, or (3) white people should always be in management positions over non-whites. Those racist people don't work here any more.

1) and 2) would fit within "racism" as an explanation, whilst 3) would likely be an example of "White supremacy".
The fact that you refer to them as "racist people" rather than "White supremacists", however, calls into doubt whether you truly saw them as "White supremacists", rather than simply racist.

Fnord wrote:

Brictoria wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

Feeling threatened or upset with any films that exclude white people, the fact there is no white history month or no white pride and so on.

Nope - No "Supremecy" there (a KEY part of the term "White supremacy") - May possibly indicate "subconcious racism", "racial bias", or similar, however.

LG is right again. And again, I personally knew some people who believed that every movie should have (a) a white person in the leading role, and (b) non-white people only as extras, thugs, street people, the villain's henchmen, and/or the villain. I don't hang with those racist people any more.

Both of these would indicate racism rather than "White supremacy", based on the information here and definitions of the terms. You even stated that they were "racist", rather than "White supremacists" in your description of them, indicating that they were not, to your understanding, "White supremacists".

Fnord wrote:

White Supremacy is not only about wanting to return to a slave-based economy; it is also about placing white people in leading roles in education, employment, entertainment, politics, and even religion.

As per the definition, it is about believing that other races are (or should be) subservient to "White" people. The fact that "White" people are placed in leading roles does not neccessarily imply "White supremacy":
To paraphrase a common politician's syllogism:
1) White supremacy involves a belief that "White" people should be in charge.
2) The new "manager"\"leader"\<insert role\position> is "White".
3) Therefore they got the job due to "White supremacy".

Brictoria
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05 Aug 2020, 9:23 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Bradleigh wrote:

If you don't like black people in the Witcher Netflix series and use the reason that it is heavily inspired by Polish culture, I suspect there is more of a reason why you actually don't like it. Or that a Mermaid can't have dark skin, or Heimdall from Thor having be black.

I think Netflix's Cursed got a "schalacking" for having a black King Arthur....

While it is POSSIBLE that there were black people in England at the time (related to the earlier Roman occupation and the possibility of a black roman citizen\family\freed slaves remaining when the roman army withdrew), it would be unlikely (not impossible, however) for a "king" of that time to be black (it would have been notable had there been one, if not in records\stories from their "kingdom", then certainly in those from their neighbours) based on known records.

That said, there is a large portion of "fantasy" involved in that show, which should negate some part of the criticism, although that needs to be weighed against the "historical" component, and how historically accurate this should be given the background to the story the show is based upon - Are people watching it for (or is it marketed based around) the "historical" component or the "fantasy" component?

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05 Aug 2020, 9:30 pm

There is no actual King Arthur in history, right? It is just a legend and a fictional character. Complaining about a lack of historical accuracy of multicultural characters while being fine with everything else that is inaccurate, is kind of silly. And I suspect that even if you removed every non-white character and the magic, it probably would still have plenty of inaccuracies to the period that it is set.

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cyberdad
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05 Aug 2020, 9:37 pm

Brictoria wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Bradleigh wrote:

I think Netflix's Cursed got a "schalacking" for having a black King Arthur....

Yes I think this falls into the category of fantasy like Homer's Illiad or Troy where characters like Arthur or Hector or Paris can be depicted by any actor as the characters were fictitious. There is of course the issue of cultural sensitivity as Arthur is a British cultural hero and Troy is close to the heart's of Greeks.

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05 Aug 2020, 9:41 pm

Bradleigh wrote:

It's likely according to historians that Arthur was an actual celtic ruler who lived in Britain after the time when Rome pulled out of Britain around 400-500AD. In the tales there is mention of Arthur's battles with Saxons which means he could also be some type of warrior king who was deified as a hero.

Brictoria
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05 Aug 2020, 9:52 pm

Bradleigh wrote:

While there is no definitive answer to whether there was or was not a historical "King Arthur", the stories do date back many centuries (9th century, for example):

Quote:

The historical basis for King Arthur was long debated by scholars. One school of thought, citing entries in the Historia Brittonum (History of the Britons) and Annales Cambriae (Welsh Annals), saw Arthur as a genuine historical figure, a Romano-British leader who fought against the invading Anglo-Saxons some time in the late 5th to early 6th century.

The Historia Brittonum, a 9th-century Latin historical compilation attributed in some late manuscripts to a Welsh cleric called Nennius, contains the first datable mention of King Arthur, listing twelve battles that Arthur fought. These culminate in the Battle of Badon, where he is said to have single-handedly killed 960 men. Recent studies, however, question the reliability of the Historia Brittonum.[7]

The other text that seems to support the case for Arthur's historical existence is the 10th-century Annales Cambriae, which also link Arthur with the Battle of Badon. The Annales date this battle to 516–518, and also mention the Battle of Camlann, in which Arthur and Medraut (Mordred) were both killed, dated to 537–539. These details have often been used to bolster confidence in the Historia's account and to confirm that Arthur really did fight at Badon.

Problems have been identified, however, with using this source to support the Historia Brittonum's account. The latest research shows that the Annales Cambriae was based on a chronicle begun in the late 8th century in Wales. Additionally, the complex textual history of the Annales Cambriae precludes any certainty that the Arthurian annals were added to it even that early. They were more likely added at some point in the 10th century and may never have existed in any earlier set of annals. The Badon entry probably derived from the Historia Brittonum.[8]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

Most (all) film representations seem to have changed the setting (stone castles were uncommon\non existant in the UK prior to the Norman invasion in 1066, for example), but generally include the supernatural elements, which date from the 12 century Historia Regum Britanniae:

Quote:

Although the themes, events and characters of the Arthurian legend varied widely from text to text, and there is no one canonical version, Geoffrey's version of events often served as the starting point for later stories. Geoffrey depicted Arthur as a king of Britain who defeated the Saxons and established a vast empire. Many elements and incidents that are now an integral part of the Arthurian story appear in Geoffrey's Historia, including Arthur's father Uther Pendragon, the magician Merlin, Arthur's wife Guinevere, the sword Excalibur, Arthur's conception at Tintagel, his final battle against Mordred at Camlann, and final rest in Avalon.

Brictoria
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05 Aug 2020, 9:56 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Brictoria wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Bradleigh wrote:

I think Netflix's Cursed got a "schalacking" for having a black King Arthur....

Similar to imagining the lead role in "Mulan" as being of European or African descent, too...It wouldn't seem "right" for the story being told.

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05 Aug 2020, 9:59 pm

Brictoria wrote:

Similar to imagining the lead role in "Mulan" as being of European or African descent, too...It wouldn't seem "right" for the story being told.

For the Mulan story it wouldn't work if Mulan was played by Scarlett Johansen :lol:

ASPartOfMe
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06 Aug 2020, 2:54 am

Supremacy has a pretty basic definition.

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magz
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06 Aug 2020, 4:02 am

League_Girl wrote:

Examples of white supremacy are:

Feeling threatened by inclusion by work places wanting to include minorities more by hiring more of them so they are a diverse work place

I've encountered it in a bit different form, a West European scientist being concerned by a vision of East and South Asian scientists "flooding" the science world... I guess he got too used to the leading role. Science is science, it does not have adress, all that counts is its quality.

League_Girl wrote:

Feeling threatened or upset with any films that exclude white people, the fact there is no white history month or no white pride and so on.

Does feeling annoyed by some Netflix casts count?
Sometimes I get a feeling that movies try to be forcibly inclusive. Sometimes the results are okay, sometimes it just sticks out.

League_Girl wrote:

Being worried about becoming the minority as the minorities get more and more common and having kids with white people

When kids of mixed marriages are raised in Poland, with Polish as their first language, they are Polish and they are "minority" only with their looks. Doesn't it work like that elsewhere?

League_Girl wrote:

And of course thinking being white is better

Having it better when you're white is, I think, the very definition of "white privilege".

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magz
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06 Aug 2020, 4:20 am

TheRobotLives wrote:

Wolfram87 wrote:

TheRobotLives wrote:

White people throughout time conquered and enslaved others.

Fixed that for you.

That's not what is taught.

World History classes only have so much time.

So, they focus on "great accomplishments" of white European people.

Like when white Europeans discovered America or Manifest Destiny.

No Inca Empire? No First Caliphate? No Jengis Khan?
No roots of European civilization in Ancient Egypt and Levant?

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vermontsavant
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06 Aug 2020, 5:14 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Supremacy has a pretty basic definition.

If you go back a page or two,I gave it perfectly.

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FleaOfTheChill
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06 Aug 2020, 8:12 am

Well, there's a lot going on here since I last checked in. I'm just going to focus on the movie/actor talk here for a minute.

I don't see everyday people reacting to diversity in movies as white supremacy, rather, I see their reactions as a symptom of white supremacy. I mean, there wouldn't be a reaction to it, if it was common place and the norm. But because white people have had the leads for so long and dominated the images we have been seeing, the change there and inclusiveness is a stand out thing that's gets people's attention. I think the two are related, one symptomatic of the other, but also not the same. For me, the reactions draw attention to how pervasive white supremacy is in main stream culture.

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06 Aug 2020, 8:41 am

magz wrote:

No Inca Empire? No First Caliphate? No Jengis Khan?
No roots of European civilization in Ancient Egypt and Levant?

Khan was mentioned.
Islamic stuff , no.
Inca, maybe, but briefly.

As others said earlier, it's taught from a European perspective.

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magz
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06 Aug 2020, 8:56 am

TheRobotLives wrote:

magz wrote:

No Inca Empire? No First Caliphate? No Jengis Khan?
No roots of European civilization in Ancient Egypt and Levant?

Khan was mentioned.
Islamic stuff , no.
Inca, maybe, but briefly.

As others said earlier, it's taught from a European perspective.

Living in Europe, I was definitely taught History from European perspective - which always started from Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia :farao:

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Fnord
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06 Aug 2020, 9:12 am

My wife is a Filipina. She watches a lot of Filipino movies on Netflix. Aside from the lower video and audio quality, the only thing that disturbs me about many of those movies is that the hero is always a lighter-skinned "tisoi" -- a man with dominant white ancestry -- while the bad guys are almost always stereo-typically dark-skinned.

Even in foreign countries, "White Supremacy" is insidious in the way it has dominated the media. Watch NHK World (Japan) or Arirang News (S.Korea) -- the anchor-people are all light-skinned and speak near-perfect English, while the field reporters are almost always dark-skinned and speak with heavy native accents.

It was explained to me that back in the Colonial days (when Europeans though they owned the world), and even back before then to the previous native feudal periods, the lowest class of servants acquired darker skin from working in the sun all day, while the upper class of servants worked indoors and had pale skin. Eventually, many Asian cultures came to view lighter skin as a sign of class and sophistication, while darker skin was viewed as a sign of crudeness and ignorance, even though skin color of a largely homogeneous race is largely dependent upon sun exposure.

I have to wonder if this was the Bronze-Age origin of the whole idea that white people -- literally, people with porcelain-white skin -- were somehow better than all the rest. If so, then it's a "tail wagging the dog" situation, and white skin does not indicate any inherent superiority of the person inside it (which should be obvious anyway).

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