[ POLL ] Regarding the 5 Estates of Government & Society.

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Do you agree with the concepts of "Estates" as presented?
Definitely Yes -- I agree with each and all of the concepts presented. 20%  20%  [ 1 ]
Mostly Yes -- I agree with most of the concepts, with a few exceptions. 40%  40%  [ 2 ]
Cannot Decide -- I may have to ponder the matter further. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Mostly No -- I disagree with most of the concepts, with a few exceptions. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Definitely No -- I disagree with each and all of the concepts presented. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other: ________________ (Please Elaborate). 40%  40%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 5

Fnord
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23 Aug 2020, 10:43 am

Given this list of concepts or "Estates" upholding a republic or feudal empire...

1ST ESTATE: A term referring to religious institutions and their leaders.

2ND ESTATE: A term referring to Nobility, and (technically, though not in common use) royalty, other than the Soveriegn, who stands outside of the system of estates.  The Second Estate is traditionally divided into the "Nobility of the Sword" (Knights), and the "Nobility of the Robe" (Barons, Marquis, Counts, Dukes, and Archdukes), the magisterial class that administers royal justice and civil government.

3RD ESTATE: A term referring to all of those who were not members of the 1st or 2nd estates, and can be divided into two groups: land-owners and wage-earners, although there is considerable overlap between the two.

4TH ESTATE: A term referring to the press and the news media, both in explicit capacity of advocacy and implicit ability to frame political issues.  Though it is not formally recognized as a part of a political system, it wields significant and indirect social influences.  The media news services are an example of the 4th Estate.

5TH ESTATE: A term referring to landless people, especially non-citizens, foreigners, exiles, and anarchists -- people who have willingly forsaken any allegiances to any established government body.

...  please select an option from the attached poll.  You may select only one option, but you may change your selection at any time, and for any reason.

Please note that if anyone -- and you know who you are -- tries to hijack this thread to advance his or her own political agenda, then I will ask the moderators to lock this thread.  Due to this notice, hijacking this thread will be considered a purposeful act to have it locked, and I will report the person committing the act to the moderators.



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23 Aug 2020, 11:37 am

At least even in America most even wealthy to middle class people would fit option 5.

Maybe in Europe some of the others might be applicable.


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Fnord
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23 Aug 2020, 12:24 pm

These 5 "Estates" should be considered collectively.



Jiheisho
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23 Aug 2020, 12:41 pm

It is an archaic concept and construction. Those terms are mostly used in ideological arguments.



naturalplastic
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23 Aug 2020, 2:36 pm

Taking the caste system of 18th century France and applying it to 21st Century America is like pounding a square peg into a round hole. Doesnt quite fit. But its doesnt totally not fit.

Older TV newscasters will describe themselves as being members of "the Fourth Estate". And thats about the only time you hear this concept outside of European history courses nowadays.

Despite being the most religious country in the industrialized world church clergy have even less power here in the US than they do in Europe, and they dont have much power there either anymore.

The secular academic establishment has kind of replaced churchmen as the modern priesthood, and dispensers of truth.

So arguably academics are the modern first estate.

There was never royalty or nobility in the US. So we have never had a second estate, unless you count industrialists and tycoons who rose up from the third estate to become as powerful as feudal nobility. The tycoons of the guilded age, and the politically feuding billionaires of today (Musk, Gates, Bezos, Bloomberg, the Koch Brothers,etc) come to mind as being our new second estate.

The third estate of rural landowners and wage earners translates into the workers and small business owners of today. Thats still a thing and a force in society.

We have a fourth estate, and its expanding thanks to technology. Everyone can be a Utuber now. So we are all potential members of the fourth estate.

And we have homeless folks, and hookers, and other members of the sub proletariat who would be classified as the Fifth Estate.

But where you take the concept from there and apply it to modern politics I do not know.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 23 Aug 2020, 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kraftiekortie
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23 Aug 2020, 2:45 pm

Most people would be in the third estate, actually. Should we be forced to assess people this way.



kraftiekortie
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23 Aug 2020, 2:47 pm

There is frequent overlap these days.

And they are not as inflexible as in medieval times.



Fnord
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23 Aug 2020, 2:47 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
It is an archaic concept and construction. Those terms are mostly used in ideological arguments.
naturalplastic wrote:
Taking the caste system of 18th century France and applying it to 21st Century America is like pounding a square peg into a round hole. Doesn't quite fit. But its doesn't totally not fit...
Thank you for recognizing them and noting their (ir)relevance.

Yes, they are archaic.  This morning I was reading an old college history text when I encountered these "Estate" concepts. Then I thought to see if (1) anyone else would recognize them, and (2) if they could somehow still apply to modern-day feudal/republic governments.

(I also posted a similar thread on "Columns" of democratic governments.)

So, do you agree with these ideas, or do you reject them outright?  If you reject them, are you doing so only because they are "archaic"?

In my opinion, as a caste system, they may still apply to some modern-day republics.


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Jiheisho
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23 Aug 2020, 2:54 pm

I have a Master's degree in public policy. There are simply better ways of understanding social structure and social dynamics. Generally speaking, you want a model that allows to make good predictions of how a society functions.

This "Estate" concept comes from a long history of philosophy, but not science. Naturally, the the tools and concepts to investigate social structure did not really exist for a long time. We just have better ideas and tools to make investigations. Still, there is a long way to go as you are dealing with social psychology, which is a really hard environment to measure and get information on.



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24 Aug 2020, 12:35 pm

"Given this list of concepts or "Estates" upholding a republic or feudal empire..."

Only Going to Give An Opinion on 'America':

"1ST ESTATE: A term referring to religious institutions and their leaders."

Religious Institutions Vote Together Over Common Issues And Folks to Keep Their Ideologies in Charge, if Possible.

"2ND ESTATE: A term referring to Nobility, and (technically, though not in common use) royalty, other than the Soveriegn, who stands outside of the system of estates. The Second Estate is traditionally divided into the "Nobility of the Sword" (Knights), and the "Nobility of the Robe" (Barons, Marquis, Counts, Dukes, and Archdukes), the magisterial class that administers royal justice and civil government."

Technically, No; Metaphorically Yes, of Course there is an Elite Class of Folks Who Exert Much Influence in 'Empire' Building.

"3RD ESTATE: A term referring to all of those who were not members of the 1st or 2nd estates, and can be divided into two groups: land-owners and wage-earners, although there is considerable overlap between the two."

People Who have Ownership in the 'Empire', Will Naturally Strive More to influence What Holds the Empire Together.

"4TH ESTATE: A term referring to the press and the news media, both in explicit capacity of advocacy and implicit ability to frame political issues. Though it is not formally recognized as a part of a political system, it wields significant and indirect social influences. The media news services are an example of the 4th Estate."

Obviously, in America; In Terms of News Outlets like Fox; Absolutely, And Amazingly influential, Literally at the 'Top
of the TV-Watch-List, Now; Bringing together What Happens Next; Integral to How 'the Empire' Continues to Build
in Unity; or Fall Down in Division.

"5TH ESTATE: A term referring to landless people, especially non-citizens, foreigners, exiles, and anarchists -- people who have willingly forsaken any allegiances to any established government body."

"They Pick the Corn"; Without Corn; We Don't Get to Eat as Much; So Sure, 'They' play an Integral Role too.


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