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Which Religion Should Be The National Religion?
Animism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Atheism 24%  24%  [ 8 ]
Buddhism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Christianity 15%  15%  [ 5 ]
Confucianism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Druidism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Gnosticism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hinduism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Islam 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Jainism 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Judaism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Mormonism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Paganism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Scientology 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Shamanism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Shintoism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sikhism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Taoism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Zoroastrianism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other: ________________ (Please elaborate). 39%  39%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 33

vermontsavant
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05 Sep 2020, 1:59 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Frederick Douglass told in his book... for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.


Any strong belief system (not just religion but also ideology, government propaganda, cults, and mental illness) can lead to "good people" doing evil. For example, "good people" committed genocide in Rwanda after propaganda referred to another ethnic group as cockroaches and later called for those cockroaches to be exterminated. The propaganda that they were cockroaches dehumanized them so it felt like they were getting rid of pests instead of people.

Christianity was never responsible for "good people" doing evil. People did evil because they distorted and twisted Christian teaching or followed someone else who did.

So your using the "no true Scottsman" strawman argument.Saying "the Christians who killed people were not real Christians" Therefore; Christians have never killed anyone.

There are 130 Christian denominations,maybe more some say,so what is a real Christian then?


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naturalplastic
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05 Sep 2020, 3:31 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Frederick Douglass told in his book... for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.


Any strong belief system (not just religion but also ideology, government propaganda, cults, and mental illness) can lead to "good people" doing evil. For example, "good people" committed genocide in Rwanda after propaganda referred to another ethnic group as cockroaches and later called for those cockroaches to be exterminated. The propaganda that they were cockroaches dehumanized them so it felt like they were getting rid of pests instead of people.

Christianity was never responsible for "good people" doing evil. People did evil because they distorted and twisted Christian teaching or followed someone else who did.

So your using the "no true Scottsman" strawman argument.Saying "the Christians who killed people were not real Christians" Therefore; Christians have never killed anyone.

There are 130 Christian denominations,maybe more some say,so what is a real Christian then?


I agree with both points. Christianity doesnt have a monopoly. Other religions, and also secular political creeds/ideologies, have also inspired zealots to do bad things.

But that old saw about "Christians have NEVER committed violent acts in the name of Christianity because blah blah" is a prime example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

So... both of you get a cigar! :D

Carry on.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 05 Sep 2020, 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Sep 2020, 3:52 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Frederick Douglass told in his book... for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.


Any strong belief system (not just religion but also ideology, government propaganda, cults, and mental illness) can lead to "good people" doing evil. For example, "good people" committed genocide in Rwanda after propaganda referred to another ethnic group as cockroaches and later called for those cockroaches to be exterminated. The propaganda that they were cockroaches dehumanized them so it felt like they were getting rid of pests instead of people.

Christianity was never responsible for "good people" doing evil. People did evil because they distorted and twisted Christian teaching or followed someone else who did.

So your using the "no true Scottsman" strawman argument.Saying "the Christians who killed people were not real Christians" Therefore; Christians have never killed anyone.

There are 130 Christian denominations,maybe more some say,so what is a real Christian then?


Most of those 130 or so denominations are true, to one degree or another.


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05 Sep 2020, 4:10 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Frederick Douglass told in his book... for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.


Any strong belief system (not just religion but also ideology, government propaganda, cults, and mental illness) can lead to "good people" doing evil. For example, "good people" committed genocide in Rwanda after propaganda referred to another ethnic group as cockroaches and later called for those cockroaches to be exterminated. The propaganda that they were cockroaches dehumanized them so it felt like they were getting rid of pests instead of people.

Christianity was never responsible for "good people" doing evil. People did evil because they distorted and twisted Christian teaching or followed someone else who did.

So your using the "no true Scotsman" strawman argument.Saying "the Christians who killed people were not real Christians" Therefore; Christians have never killed anyone.

There are 130 Christian denominations,maybe more some say,so what is a real Christian then?


Most of those 130 or so denominations are true, to one degree or another.
Many Christians claim to be the only real Christians,That's the " no true Scotsman" argument.


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05 Sep 2020, 4:38 pm

^^^



Probably not 'the Ones' Who are Priests still
Who Tell the Congregation to Wear a Mask,
if 'You Feel the Need to Wear one'; Probably
Not the Congregation At the Trump Rally in
the Same Panhandle of Florida That Jeer the
Rally on With Cheers of 'Shoot The Immigrant'
Coming across the Border with 'the Orange
Messiah' of Course Proudly Saying
'Only in the Panhandle
of Florida, Can You
Get Away With
Saying That'; Yes,
With A Big Toothy
Truly more
Evil Grin
Than
Adolph
Style; Where i Live,
So-Called Christian
Churches Parrot 'Evil
Faux Fox News' all the
Way from the Top to the Bottom;
Meanwhile that Dude coming across
the Mexican Border; the one who was
Five Foot 1 and about 106 Pounds or So;
Shortly Cropped Hair, Coming Back the Same
Way as a Carpenter From Dry Desert Lands too...
And Of course Very Brown, Mexican or Syrian,
Just Closer to the Indian Heritage We All are;
Indigenous of Children of the Brown
Earth too; Yep, Nope, Jesus Didn't
Make it as he
Came back
And Didn't have
to wait for 3 Hours
or 3 Days or Whatever
to Suffocate on a Cross;
Just Bang Bang Bang Bang
Bang Bang Bang; but i understand
'the Thief' on the Cross Next to him
He Forgave this go Around is only
Paralyzed and at least still Breathing;
True, Jesus and From What i see Most
of His so-called
Supporters Really
Haven't Changed
Much at all in 2000
Years; for the Least one
Does to the Least Who Jesus
Recognizes As Jesus are those
Who Never Understood the Story ever at all...

Honestly, Most
Christians, i've
Ever Met in the Locality
That Once Held the Record
For the Most Christian Churches
Per Square Mile Wouldn't Recognize
Jesus, even if He Looked like the Dude
in the Painting; Danced All around them;
13,633 Miles For 7 Years And to Top it off,
Wrote an 8.4 MiLLioN Word Longest EPiC LonG
Form Poem Bible Coming in Glory to Judge the Living
Dead, Just the way they Asked for it in the Nicene Creed too;
True, i am Just
Doing an
Anthropology
Study as Participant
Anthropology Observer;
But True there is no way in
Hell that Jesus could ever come
back to this Place as Promised the
Way he came before; and be noticed at all;
but i bet the Young Women Would Offer up
Their Hips to him for a Decadent Dance That
Only 'David' Might Appreciate more; True, there
Are Inherent Rewards in Both The Science And the
Art Project of Playing this Role again...
Just Wait until the
Book Comes Out;
haha; but nah;
it was
finished
Long ago by
someone else first...
And that's How the Story becomes Real Again...

Honestly, though as Far as National Religions go;

We Need 'Back to the Future' As Biff is President For Real;

Where the Hell is the Person Playing Michael Jackson Fox;

Honestly, though as Far As National Religions Go; The Theater
Indeed too; 'the Joker' is President of the United States Where the

Hell

is Batman now?

Or Is Jack Nicholson
Playing Batman Now;

In other Words, When
The Villain Again Becomes
the Hero; Jesus always Dies Again...

As Truly 'Isaiah 53' is Just A Standard Hero Archetypal Story;

if one Doesn't fill the Role; Again; the 'Other Darker Part' of 'Revelation' comes for real...

i must Admit Doing that Role for 7 Years around the World Was particularly rewarding
All Naked of CuLTuRaL Clothes that really keep us all Chained Down, Locked up in Old

Dusty Books oF old...

In Shorts or Less;
i Choose a National
Religion All Naked And
Loving Fearless Free; Butt Really i Hope
it's More Like Venus Here when that 'Happens';
Already Happened to me at least; With Smiles of my
Own Religion of Venus (Love) i for one own; no one
Else but me loving free...

And of course, the
Other Inhabitants
of Venus almost

All Women...

i am NOT
Complaining...

When in Rome
Again, if you Can and
Will You Make it Venus;
Thriving Truly Love Free Alive...

The Earth Women Are So Beautiful;
It's amazing, i even got Started by age 53...
Butt Honestly; i couldn't have done it without them; Particularly 'Eve' Again too...


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05 Sep 2020, 5:11 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Frederick Douglass told in his book... for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.


Any strong belief system (not just religion but also ideology, government propaganda, cults, and mental illness) can lead to "good people" doing evil. For example, "good people" committed genocide in Rwanda after propaganda referred to another ethnic group as cockroaches and later called for those cockroaches to be exterminated. The propaganda that they were cockroaches dehumanized them so it felt like they were getting rid of pests instead of people.

Christianity was never responsible for "good people" doing evil. People did evil because they distorted and twisted Christian teaching or followed someone else who did.

So your using the "no true Scotsman" strawman argument.Saying "the Christians who killed people were not real Christians" Therefore; Christians have never killed anyone.

There are 130 Christian denominations,maybe more some say,so what is a real Christian then?


Most of those 130 or so denominations are true, to one degree or another.
Many Christians claim to be the only real Christians,That's the " no true Scotsman" argument.


I was talking about different denominations with somewhat different doctrinal stands, which are still close enough to the truth, not individual believers.
But yes, those so called Christians who believe in the prosperity gospel, or in dominionism, clearly should be reevaluating their faith.


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05 Sep 2020, 6:01 pm

None.

I just prefer to live in a society which emphasizes rationality, science, and critical thinking. That alone will cut down on the amount of religious claptrap which seeks to control our lives. Completely voluntarily, of course.


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05 Sep 2020, 10:31 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Frederick Douglass told in his book... for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.


Any strong belief system (not just religion but also ideology, government propaganda, cults, and mental illness) can lead to "good people" doing evil. For example, "good people" committed genocide in Rwanda after propaganda referred to another ethnic group as cockroaches and later called for those cockroaches to be exterminated. The propaganda that they were cockroaches dehumanized them so it felt like they were getting rid of pests instead of people.

Christianity was never responsible for "good people" doing evil. People did evil because they distorted and twisted Christian teaching or followed someone else who did.


So your using the "no true Scottsman" strawman argument.Saying "the Christians who killed people were not real Christians" Therefore; Christians have never killed anyone.


Not at all. You either don't understand the no true Scottsman fallacy or don't understand Christianity.

Christianity is a religion. Blaming Christianity for the actions of people who act completely contrary to Christian teaching is so obviously irrational there shouldn't be a need to explain it.

The no true Scotsman fallacy refers to saying someone isn't a true Scottsman (or other label) because of something that person does that is irrelevant to that label. The word Christian refers to people who follow the teaching of Christ. Saying someone isn't a true Christian because he doesn't follow the teaching of Christ isn't an example of the fallacy since his behavior is directly relevant as to whether he is a Christian. Saying someone isn't a true Christian because he doesn't like to babble, read the bible, or pray next to a flagpole would be an example of the no true Scotsman fallacy because babbling, reading the bible, and praying next to a flagpole has nothing to do with being a Christian.


Quote:
There are 130 Christian denominations,maybe more some say,so what is a real Christian then?


There aren't any Christian denominations. You're probably thinking about Protestant denominations. Christianity was founded 2,000 years ago by God when Jesus founded the Christian church whose teaching has not changed in 2,000 years. Protestantism was founded 500 years ago by a man named Martin Luther. That man's religion splintered off into thousands of denominations because Luther based his new religion on books and letters that can be interpreted in an unlimited number of ways without any way of knowing which interpretation is correct.



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05 Sep 2020, 10:38 pm

^^^
The majority of Christian denominations are not protestants.

They are the sub divisions under the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox umbrellas.


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05 Sep 2020, 11:12 pm

emotrtkey wrote:

There aren't any Christian denominations. You're probably thinking about Protestant denominations. Christianity was founded 2,000 years ago by God when Jesus founded the Christian church whose teaching has not changed in 2,000 years. Protestantism was founded 500 years ago by a man named Martin Luther. That man's religion splintered off into thousands of denominations because Luther based his new religion on books and letters that can be interpreted in an unlimited number of ways without any way of knowing which interpretation is correct.

It sounds like saying,your denomination is the only denomination,so there for there are no denominations.
Sounds,no true Scotsman to me.


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emotrtkey
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05 Sep 2020, 11:12 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
^^^
The majority of Christian denominations are not protestants.

They are the sub divisions under the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox umbrellas.


I don't think Orthodox have denominations either. Every Orthodox church, whether it's Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. basically teaches the same faith. The differences have more to do with ethnicity and practice than doctrinal differences. Oriental churches are different than Orthodox churches because they rejected one of the Ecumenical Councils which led to them being condemned as heretics by Christian churches.

Protestantism is well known as a religion with thousands of denominations. Shortly after Luther founded Protestantism in the 16th century, other men started their own denominations to compete with Luther. Those denominations literally declared war and killed each other in a conquest to get the most followers.



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05 Sep 2020, 11:19 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
^^^
The majority of Christian denominations are not protestants.

They are the sub divisions under the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox umbrellas.


I don't think Orthodox have denominations either. Every Orthodox church, whether it's Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. basically teaches the same faith. The differences have more to do with ethnicity and practice than doctrinal differences. Oriental churches are different than Orthodox churches because they rejected one of the Ecumenical Councils which led to them being condemned as heretics by Christian churches.

Protestantism is well known as a religion with thousands of denominations. Shortly after Luther founded Protestantism in the 16th century, other men started their own denominations to compete with Luther. Those denominations literally declared war and killed each other in a conquest to get the most followers.


If you asked someone from Greece or Serbia,they would beg to differ,they would say there religion is totally different than each other.

And you forgot The Oriental orthodox umbrella too.Armenian Apostolic would be very different from Coptic as well.


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05 Sep 2020, 11:31 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
^^^
The majority of Christian denominations are not protestants.

They are the sub divisions under the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox umbrellas.


I don't think Orthodox have denominations either. Every Orthodox church, whether it's Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. basically teaches the same faith. The differences have more to do with ethnicity and practice than doctrinal differences. Oriental churches are different than Orthodox churches because they rejected one of the Ecumenical Councils which led to them being condemned as heretics by Christian churches.

Protestantism is well known as a religion with thousands of denominations. Shortly after Luther founded Protestantism in the 16th century, other men started their own denominations to compete with Luther. Those denominations literally declared war and killed each other in a conquest to get the most followers.


Uh... no. Protestants are still Christians, regardless of difference interpretation.
Those religious wars weren't fought between Protestants, but between largely secular Protestant powers against Roman Catholicism in the latter's attempt to bring them back into the church by military force.


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05 Sep 2020, 11:36 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:

There aren't any Christian denominations. You're probably thinking about Protestant denominations. Christianity was founded 2,000 years ago by God when Jesus founded the Christian church whose teaching has not changed in 2,000 years. Protestantism was founded 500 years ago by a man named Martin Luther. That man's religion splintered off into thousands of denominations because Luther based his new religion on books and letters that can be interpreted in an unlimited number of ways without any way of knowing which interpretation is correct.

It sounds like saying,your denomination is the only denomination,so there for there are no denominations.
Sounds,no true Scotsman to me.


You misunderstood the no true Scotsman fallacy. To see whether an argument qualifies, there are two steps:

Step 1 - Precisely define the group
Step 2 - Evaluate whether the criteria used in the argument are relevant

For example, claiming atheists aren't theists (people who believe in God) isn't a no true Scotsman fallacy because not believing in God excludes them from being theists. If I claimed to be a dog and someone said I wasn't a dog because I didn't have four legs and canine DNA, it wouldn't be a no true Scotsman fallacy to say I wasn't a dog because those things are relevant and show that I'm not a dog. If a religion was founded 2,000 years ago with well defined teaching and someone comes along over 1,000 years later and preaches a bunch of their own opinions that disagree with that religion, it's not a no true Scotsman fallacy to say their organization is not part of that religion since those doctrinal differences are directly relevant to evaluating their claims. If that weren't the case, I could start a new denomination tomorrow, identify it as Christian, and preach that God doesn't exist and you'd claim it was a Christian denomination and that some Christians don't believe in God.



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05 Sep 2020, 11:48 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
^^^
The majority of Christian denominations are not protestants.

They are the sub divisions under the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox umbrellas.


I don't think Orthodox have denominations either. Every Orthodox church, whether it's Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. basically teaches the same faith. The differences have more to do with ethnicity and practice than doctrinal differences. Oriental churches are different than Orthodox churches because they rejected one of the Ecumenical Councils which led to them being condemned as heretics by Christian churches.

Protestantism is well known as a religion with thousands of denominations. Shortly after Luther founded Protestantism in the 16th century, other men started their own denominations to compete with Luther. Those denominations literally declared war and killed each other in a conquest to get the most followers.


Uh... no. Protestants are still Christians, regardless of difference interpretation.


If a Protestant denomination started identifying as Muslim without changing their teaching, would it suddenly become a Muslim denomination? If I identified as Christian but interpreted Christianity to teach that there is no God, that Satan rules the world, and that murdering your neighbor is a virtuous act would you agree that I'm a Christian?



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06 Sep 2020, 3:16 am

emotrtkey wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:

There aren't any Christian denominations. You're probably thinking about Protestant denominations. Christianity was founded 2,000 years ago by God when Jesus founded the Christian church whose teaching has not changed in 2,000 years. Protestantism was founded 500 years ago by a man named Martin Luther. That man's religion splintered off into thousands of denominations because Luther based his new religion on books and letters that can be interpreted in an unlimited number of ways without any way of knowing which interpretation is correct.

It sounds like saying,your denomination is the only denomination,so there for there are no denominations.
Sounds,no true Scotsman to me.


You misunderstood the no true Scotsman fallacy. To see whether an argument qualifies, there are two steps:

Step 1 - Precisely define the group
Step 2 - Evaluate whether the criteria used in the argument are relevant

For example, claiming atheists aren't theists (people who believe in God) isn't a no true Scotsman fallacy because not believing in God excludes them from being theists. If I claimed to be a dog and someone said I wasn't a dog because I didn't have four legs and canine DNA, it wouldn't be a no true Scotsman fallacy to say I wasn't a dog because those things are relevant and show that I'm not a dog. If a religion was founded 2,000 years ago with well defined teaching and someone comes along over 1,000 years later and preaches a bunch of their own opinions that disagree with that religion, it's not a no true Scotsman fallacy to say their organization is not part of that religion since those doctrinal differences are directly relevant to evaluating their claims. If that weren't the case, I could start a new denomination tomorrow, identify it as Christian, and preach that God doesn't exist and you'd claim it was a Christian denomination and that some Christians don't believe in God.
Your not understanding,I'm not arguing anymore


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