2008 & 2020: The Combination That Changed Capitalism Forever

Page 1 of 1 [ 14 posts ] 

techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,233
Location: The 27th Path of Peh.

04 Sep 2020, 10:19 am

A new interview/monologue really from Yanis Varoufakis. So far it's pretty interesting. A few things he's offered:

1) between savings and investment there's no number at present which offers an equilibrium that could both turn savings into investment and not destroy the financial sector.

2) Assets have been significantly overvalued, that the 2008 bubble was really a corporate debt bubble and that the markets have been able to decouple from the rest of what's happening because of asset inflation.


_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling


vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,110
Location: Left WP forever

04 Sep 2020, 12:19 pm

I have never understood economics or business,but even I wouldn't compare the 2008 and 20 economies.

The 2008 crash was because of social program created by Bush (43) to allow more low income families to own a home.
So the banking industry was deregulated and banks sold off loans to other financial institutions and the loans became worthless as junk.People didn't pay back the junk loans and there were no standards as to who could take out a loan,and the real estate market collapsed,with the rest of the economy following.

The 20 financial crisis was caused by a disease keeping people quarantined and unable to go into the community and spend money.

I don't see any connection between 2008 and 2020 :?


_________________
Forever gone
Sorry I ever joined
WrongPlanet is rancid,goodbye forever


Nades
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1930
Gender: Male
Posts: 279
Location: wales

04 Sep 2020, 12:57 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
I have never understood economics or business,but even I wouldn't compare the 2008 and 20 economies.

The 2008 crash was because of social program created by Bush (43) to allow more low income families to own a home.
So the banking industry was deregulated and banks sold off loans to other financial institutions and the loans became worthless as junk.People didn't pay back the junk loans and there were no standards as to who could take out a loan,and the real estate market collapsed,with the rest of the economy following.

The 20 financial crisis was caused by a disease keeping people quarantined and unable to go into the community and spend money.

I don't see any connection between 2008 and 2020 :?


Yeah. Two VERY different recessions. In a smaller scale the 2008 crash was like overborrowing on your house. It's a massive IOU that you can't walk away from unless you sell the house but the problem is that you can't sell the house and recover your money because you're house has haemorrhaged its value.

This virus is the equivalent of someone being off work sick for months but still having a job to go back to. It's just a pause more than anything else and seems easy enough to recover from.



vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,110
Location: Left WP forever

04 Sep 2020, 1:17 pm

Nades wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I have never understood economics or business,but even I wouldn't compare the 2008 and 20 economies.

The 2008 crash was because of social program created by Bush (43) to allow more low income families to own a home.
So the banking industry was deregulated and banks sold off loans to other financial institutions and the loans became worthless as junk.People didn't pay back the junk loans and there were no standards as to who could take out a loan,and the real estate market collapsed,with the rest of the economy following.

The 20 financial crisis was caused by a disease keeping people quarantined and unable to go into the community and spend money.

I don't see any connection between 2008 and 2020 :?


Yeah. Two VERY different recessions. In a smaller scale the 2008 crash was like overborrowing on your house. It's a massive IOU that you can't walk away from unless you sell the house but the problem is that you can't sell the house and recover your money because you're house has haemorrhaged its value.

This virus is the equivalent of someone being off work sick for months but still having a job to go back to. It's just a pause more than anything else and seems easy enough to recover from.
It's sort of sad about the 2008 recession,it started with a legit attempt to make it easier for poor people to finance a new home.But the deregulation led to greed and the deregulation's were abused so greatly it caused all hell to break loose.

In a lot of ways I liked George Bush (43) he was a good hearted man but he didn't understand economics well.


_________________
Forever gone
Sorry I ever joined
WrongPlanet is rancid,goodbye forever


Nades
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 8 Jan 2017
Age: 1930
Gender: Male
Posts: 279
Location: wales

04 Sep 2020, 1:25 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Nades wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I have never understood economics or business,but even I wouldn't compare the 2008 and 20 economies.

The 2008 crash was because of social program created by Bush (43) to allow more low income families to own a home.
So the banking industry was deregulated and banks sold off loans to other financial institutions and the loans became worthless as junk.People didn't pay back the junk loans and there were no standards as to who could take out a loan,and the real estate market collapsed,with the rest of the economy following.

The 20 financial crisis was caused by a disease keeping people quarantined and unable to go into the community and spend money.

I don't see any connection between 2008 and 2020 :?


Yeah. Two VERY different recessions. In a smaller scale the 2008 crash was like overborrowing on your house. It's a massive IOU that you can't walk away from unless you sell the house but the problem is that you can't sell the house and recover your money because you're house has haemorrhaged its value.

This virus is the equivalent of someone being off work sick for months but still having a job to go back to. It's just a pause more than anything else and seems easy enough to recover from.
It's sort of sad about the 2008 recession,it started with a legit attempt to make it easier for poor people to finance a new home.But the deregulation led to greed and the deregulation's were abused so greatly it caused all hell to break loose.

In a lot of ways I liked George Bush (43) he was a good hearted man but he didn't understand economics well.


In a way yes. The sad truth though is that even if homes were a reasonable price (they're currently outrageous). They would still total the cost of all the tons of materials and thousands of hours of pre tax tradesman pay. Many of the poor can't afford that.

Here in the UK a self employed skilled builder gets paid about £25 an hour and it takes about 2500 man hours to build a house. That's an awful lot of money to someone on a minimum wage job to pay. It wasn't really a sensible decision from day one in my eyes. Typically it's better to leave the mortgage and the risk it entails to a landlord to deal with if you're on low income.



vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,110
Location: Left WP forever

04 Sep 2020, 1:48 pm

Nades wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Nades wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I have never understood economics or business,but even I wouldn't compare the 2008 and 20 economies.

The 2008 crash was because of social program created by Bush (43) to allow more low income families to own a home.
So the banking industry was deregulated and banks sold off loans to other financial institutions and the loans became worthless as junk.People didn't pay back the junk loans and there were no standards as to who could take out a loan,and the real estate market collapsed,with the rest of the economy following.

The 20 financial crisis was caused by a disease keeping people quarantined and unable to go into the community and spend money.

I don't see any connection between 2008 and 2020 :?


Yeah. Two VERY different recessions. In a smaller scale the 2008 crash was like overborrowing on your house. It's a massive IOU that you can't walk away from unless you sell the house but the problem is that you can't sell the house and recover your money because you're house has haemorrhaged its value.

This virus is the equivalent of someone being off work sick for months but still having a job to go back to. It's just a pause more than anything else and seems easy enough to recover from.
It's sort of sad about the 2008 recession,it started with a legit attempt to make it easier for poor people to finance a new home.But the deregulation led to greed and the deregulation's were abused so greatly it caused all hell to break loose.

In a lot of ways I liked George Bush (43) he was a good hearted man but he didn't understand economics well.


In a way yes. The sad truth though is that even if homes were a reasonable price (they're currently outrageous). They would still total the cost of all the tons of materials and thousands of hours of pre tax tradesman pay. Many of the poor can't afford that.

Here in the UK a self employed skilled builder gets paid about £25 an hour and it takes about 2500 man hours to build a house. That's an awful lot of money to someone on a minimum wage job to pay. It wasn't really a sensible decision from day one in my eyes. Typically it's better to leave the mortgage and the risk it entails to a landlord to deal with if you're on low income.
Yes it was a bad idea deregulate the banks to the point where they could without worry give loans that could never be paid back.


_________________
Forever gone
Sorry I ever joined
WrongPlanet is rancid,goodbye forever


Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 32
Posts: 1,420
Location: England

04 Sep 2020, 2:45 pm

I have a lot of time for Varoufakis, despite many differences. I think he will be disappointed with the way things turn out though, economics being a tertiary mover at best.


_________________
Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don’t know because we don’t want to know. It is our will that decides how and upon what subjects we shall use our intelligence. Those who detect no meaning in the world generally do so because, for one reason or another, it suits their books that the world should be meaningless.


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,233
Location: The 27th Path of Peh.

04 Sep 2020, 4:55 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
I have never understood economics or business,but even I wouldn't compare the 2008 and 20 economies.

The 2008 crash was because of social program created by Bush (43) to allow more low income families to own a home.
So the banking industry was deregulated and banks sold off loans to other financial institutions and the loans became worthless as junk.People didn't pay back the junk loans and there were no standards as to who could take out a loan,and the real estate market collapsed,with the rest of the economy following.

The 20 financial crisis was caused by a disease keeping people quarantined and unable to go into the community and spend money.

I don't see any connection between 2008 and 2020 :?

Yeah - I'd agree that he's not talking about COVID and subprime mortgage, CRE 1977, Glass Stiegal repeal all being the same thing. He's talking about root systemic weaknesses or problems that helped fuel them even more. One's a virus, the other is deregulated banking, superficially it would be absurd to claim they're the same thing.

One of the more interesting things he talked about was the collapse of Bretton Woods in 1971 and the timing of that seems right for the 1973 'bump' Mark Blyth often shows where labor wages and productivity decoupled (the windfall between the two being the credit market booms). Blyth's never brought that up as a likely contributing factor so who knows, maybe that's either a too-well known or just not substantiated well enough but considered likely proximate cause.


_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,233
Location: The 27th Path of Peh.

04 Sep 2020, 4:58 pm

Mikah wrote:
I have a lot of time for Varoufakis, despite many differences. I think he will be disappointed with the way things turn out though, economics being a tertiary mover at best.

I think of him the way I think of people like Daniel Schmachtenberger or Jordan Hall - ie. I think they can pin the darker stuff that's going on accurately but for their optimism in what else might work, I've come to see people too much as closet savages to have much hope that we get to point B until the arms races going on right now all drive themselves off a cliff together.

As far as economics being a tertiary driver though - something with all of its fingers in the primal wiring around things like status and mating selection? Awfully hard to decouple and say for sure.


_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling


Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 32
Posts: 1,420
Location: England

04 Sep 2020, 6:08 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
As far as economics being a tertiary driver though - something with all of its fingers in the primal wiring around things like status and mating selection? Awfully hard to decouple and say for sure.


There are instincts more primal than those. Blood identities trump religious identities which trump economic or class identities and everything else. You'll find the odd exception or, more usually, an apparent exception that is really something else. But in general that holds true on the micro scale and the macro over a long enough time frame.


_________________
Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don’t know because we don’t want to know. It is our will that decides how and upon what subjects we shall use our intelligence. Those who detect no meaning in the world generally do so because, for one reason or another, it suits their books that the world should be meaningless.


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,233
Location: The 27th Path of Peh.

04 Sep 2020, 6:39 pm

Mikah wrote:
There are instincts more primal than those. Blood identities trump religious identities which trump economic or class identities and everything else. You'll find the odd exception or, more usually, an apparent exception that is really something else. But in general that holds true on the micro scale and the macro over a long enough time frame.

Oh right but... assume those blood and/or religious things - gemeinschaft or pseudo-gemeinschaft, economy is the environment breathing right down their necks. You're also in for a bruising anytime blood identities take on enough overlap with oppressed class identity.


_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling


Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 32
Posts: 1,420
Location: England

04 Sep 2020, 7:58 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
economy is the environment breathing right down their necks


It can certainly act as a trigger (often mistaken for "cause") and also cover. Yanis likes wading into stranger waters though, growing a big ol' Marx beard and saying things like there is no ethnic conflict - only class conflict - ergo - solve the class conflict and we're all riding the Love Boat to multiracial utopia. Which is hopelessly, endearingly naive.


_________________
Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don’t know because we don’t want to know. It is our will that decides how and upon what subjects we shall use our intelligence. Those who detect no meaning in the world generally do so because, for one reason or another, it suits their books that the world should be meaningless.


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,233
Location: The 27th Path of Peh.

04 Sep 2020, 8:13 pm

Mikah wrote:
It can certainly act as a trigger (often mistaken for "cause") and also cover. Yanis likes wading into stranger waters though, growing a big ol' Marx beard and saying things like there is no ethnic conflict - only class conflict - ergo - solve the class conflict and we're all riding the Love Boat to multiracial utopia. Which is hopelessly, endearingly naive.

Ah, he's got a bit of Pinker in him then!


_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling


kevinquin
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2020
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 6
Location: USA

01 Oct 2020, 1:41 pm

Loans are vital now. 2020 is showing statistics of the biggest unemployment crises we’ve ever had, so probably this is something inevitable the society needs. I was afraid of taking one. What I thought was going to be a bad experience turned out to be one of the best business experiences of my life. My application at moneyexpert.com was finalized so quickly. They made everything right even though my credit score had dropped since the original application. The staff communicated every step of the process which helped me know the next steps.