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KT67
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08 Oct 2020, 9:47 am

I understand the temptation to think of this as an ethical or philosophical argument. But it really isn't.

Plenty of abnormal things can be moral. Plenty of normal things (like bullying and lying) are immoral.

I don't understand people who rush to it as their first argument on just about anything. Why? Why not learn to argue properly? Most abnormal things which are immoral have better arguments than that.

The only times I can think of it as an argument and can't think of anything else as an argument are protected sex between siblings, gay sex between siblings and cannibalism when the person in question died of natural causes.

Everything else - from cannibalism to incest to paedophilia etc - I can think of far better arguments than just 'it's not normal'. Arguments that hinge on harming another human being.

And sometimes I think 'well that's a bit weird'. For eg a man who shares his home with a load of sex dolls or a woman who fell in love with a bridge. But I just think 'leave them to it, it's not actually harming anyone with its weirdness'. These weirdnesses, I'm not sure if they're eccentricity or mental illness. But I do know they don't actually affect anyone but the individual involved. And they're not actually immoral - just weird.

My challenge to you is, if you think of something weird in your head, try to think of other reasons why it's bad before criticising it. If you can't, then maybe just choke your 'conviction' up to disgust and leave it alone.



Fnord
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08 Oct 2020, 9:56 am

I ask people who say "It's not normal" to define what 'Normal' is.

Their replies usually fall back on religious indoctrination or political agendas; sometimes both.


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Misslizard
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08 Oct 2020, 10:31 am

“Normal” is over rated, always seemed rather dull to me.


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Fnord
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08 Oct 2020, 10:42 am

 

Image


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


GGPViper
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08 Oct 2020, 10:43 am

It is not normal to put on a claustrophobic suit, climb into a cylinder filled to the brim with extremely flammable and explosive material (and then setting it aflame!), propel yourself into an environment extremely inhospitable to life and fly at 25,000mph towards a lifeless chunk of rock 238,900 miles away.


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Last edited by GGPViper on 08 Oct 2020, 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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08 Oct 2020, 10:50 am

GGPViper wrote:
It is not normal to put on a claustrophobic suit, climb into cylinder filled to the brim with extremely flammable and explosive material (and then setting it aflame!), propel yourself into an environment extremely inhospitable to life and fly at 25,000mph towards a lifeless chunk of rock 238,900 miles away.
It is not normal to board an airplane, fly up to 10,000 feet, jump out of the plane even though it is neither on fire nor in danger of crashing, to rely on an oversized silk handkerchief and some string to get you safely back on the ground, and to do it all over again the next day.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


nadroJ
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08 Oct 2020, 10:56 am

The universe is 8 billion light years big after all.

Out of the infinite possibilities of what life and our presence could be...

There is no such thing as 'normal'.



Mr Reynholm
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08 Oct 2020, 11:18 am

Fnord wrote:
 
Image

Maya Angelou was always my favorite Ninja Turtle! :D



TheRobotLives
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08 Oct 2020, 11:48 am

KT67 wrote:
try to think of other reasons why it's bad before criticising it.

"bad" is subjective, such as risk

parkours and rooftoppers <--- Me: ARE YOU NUTS?

Image


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Misslizard
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08 Oct 2020, 12:41 pm

Fnord wrote:
 
Image

I’ve been to Stamps, where she grew up.


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The_Walrus
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08 Oct 2020, 12:52 pm

On cannibalism: prion diseases. Nasty stuff.

On incest: some increased likelihood that the relationship is abusive or exploitative. Unprotected heterosexual sex is more likely to lead to children being born with severe genetic defects, but that can be mitigated.

While many of us find cannibalism and incest unsavoury, and I wouldn’t waste energy defending either practice - if I was redesigning society from the ground up then I probably wouldn’t outright ban either practice.



aghogday
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08 Oct 2020, 1:43 pm



From An Evolutionary Perspective,
Sitting in Front of A Screen For Hours
On End is Not Only As Unhealthy as Smoking
A Pack of Cigarettes A Day; It Erases Us From Face-
to-Face, Full Human Contact in so-Called 'Real Life' as
Science Shows
When We Do
Not Exercise
The Various
Empathy Muscles
of Love, Face-to-Face
Like Cognitive Empathy,
Sympathy, And Compassion
Those Human Inherited Evolutionary
Gifts Tend to Wither Away And We Become
More of What We Feed Ourselves, Human or Machine;

True, When i went to College; Both in Computer Labs
And Halls to Engineering Classes, There Were Signs Posted
On Walls that Said Don't Forget You Are Human Get Out and

About

And

Do

Human Too...

i Sit in Front of

This Screen Entirely

too Much; Yet i Dance, i Dance, And Sing Free...

WHere Mostly only Butterflies Dare to Spring Green...

Clue: Green Doesn't Feed the Earth Like Brown Leaves Do...

And Moving Meditation as Science Shows; Yes, Class of Course
my Special Interest too; is truly a Fountain of Youth in Free Dance And Song
That Will Regenerate Human Mind, Body, And Soul as Metaphor From Head
to Toe, Above so Below; Within, Inside, Outside And All Around; As Yes Just
A Non-Verbal Dance Will Light Up the Social Empathic Mind Motivating us to Communicate

Even
Warmer
Now And
Friendly 'Real'
With Each Other
too; anyway, this is surely
A More Fascinating Special
Interest to me as Obviously
What the World is Missing Most
Is a Dance And Song ToGeTHeR NoW
CoLoRinG Worlds More; Truly What We Inherit Most To
Give And Share Free Together Without Even A Written Word...

Yes, It's True Writing Symbols We Learn As Collected Knowledge;

But Innately, We Come With A Dance And Song As Children together

to Make not only a Successful Forage, Work of the Night; but indeed,

The Sound,
The Sight
Of Dance
And Music We Co-Create
With Vocal Chords And All
Parts of Us Dancing And Singing a Natural Glee...

Or a 'Rave' with Modern Electronic Trance Music that will surely 'Take'
Ya to 'Flow' Free And Blissfully More Healthy too; Without Any 'Additives' Of course too...

What's Really Hilarious Is 'A So-called' 'Advanced Modern World' Believing i am the 'Not Normal one'
Dancing Every WHere i go in Public as Evolutionary Speaking Pubic Dance is the Oldest Most Established

Non-
Verbal
Reciprocal
Social Communication
There is; Without It We
Tend to Become Brown
Leaves So Much Sooner With Green Leaves gone...

Dance

Dance

Dance

And Sing
Truly The Most
Normal Human Behaviors
We Humans Do Together Free....

Even Without Any Pre-Arranged Dance Steps or Choir Sheets too..

Meh; And Forget About all the Books of Bibles, Lest We Become Trapped

iN A Word Small as 'God'...

OR EVEN JUST ONE MAN...

i Still Don't Have Enough
Words Fully MeASuRinG
Dance Steps, Song Words
AcTuAlly Feeling Sensing Steps And Words...

True, Some of Us Have More Shallow Hells And
Deeper Heavens Than Anyone Else Will Ever 'See' Our Way....

As Pink Floyd Dances Sings Cheers to Wishing 'You' Are 'Hear'....


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KT67
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08 Oct 2020, 2:09 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

On incest: some increased likelihood that the relationship is abusive or exploitative. Unprotected heterosexual sex is more likely to lead to children being born with severe genetic defects, but that can be mitigated.


Yeah. That's why I have specific moral issues with unprotected heterosexual incest or with incest between parent and child.

Disgust still exists for me when those factors are taken out of it. And it's enough disgust that the 'but it's weird' comes into play. I can't ethically think of why though - seems less logical, more subconscious.

Although apparently there tends to be a big age gap when talking even about brothers and sisters which would make it in between the scenario I'm thinking of and the parent-child abuse dynamic.



League_Girl
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08 Oct 2020, 2:59 pm

Quote:
Everything else - from cannibalism to incest to paedophilia etc - I can think of far better arguments than just 'it's not normal'. Arguments that hinge on harming another human being.


Incest= My argument here is just as long as they are not sexually abusing their siblings and parents are not sexually abusing their children and there is no pregnancy happening in families and a parent isn't forcing their adult child to have a relationship with them, then I see nothing wrong with it. I do not endorse the case with Ma Duncan and her son since clearly she was over bearing and controlling and her son was not able to say no or bad things would happen like the time his mom got herself sick to get his attention and it worked because he came back to her.

Pedophilia= it means sexual attraction to children and just as long as they do not endorse it and do not act on it and try to advocate for lower consent laws, they are not bad people. Plenty of pedophiles get help and they have things like depo shots. I once read somewhere that only 20% offend. This is a touchy topic to discuss without anyone getting emotional and all riled up.

Cannibalism=murder is illegal and to eat the dead body even after they pass away is disrespectful to the family and to the person who had passed away. Unless they left in their will that they want their body to be eaten than be buried or cremated, then that would be another argument to have and why it would still be wrong or not.

And as my mom always says, just because it's normal does not mean it's okay.


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kraftiekortie
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08 Oct 2020, 3:05 pm

There's an excellent reason why incest is banned in the vast, vast majority of cultures. It is the "big taboo" all over the world.

If incest were rampant, we would stop existing as a species.



PhosphorusDecree
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08 Oct 2020, 3:30 pm

There have been plenty of societies where cannibalism was normal. But I've never heard of one where it was a case of "I'm hungry, I'm gonna just kill someone." There are two standard versions of the practice in cannibal societies: eating someone from your own tribe as part of their funeral rites, and ritually eating the bodies of enemy warriors after a victory.

Norms as to what is considered incest also vary. Marriage between first cousins is very common in Pakistan, but forbidden as incestuous to Catholics.

I love "unnatural" as a criticism of gay and trans people. Hey, bigot, you think that's unnatural? Let me destroy your unnatural abomination of a car, your disgusting unnatural clothes, your freakish unnatural job, your filthy unnatural phone, your depraved unnatural house.... and here's an article about entirely natural bisexual albatrosses for you to read on some unnatural paper. Ta now.


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