Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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League_Girl
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27 Nov 2020, 12:46 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Some conservatives argue:

1. You made a series of sub-optimal decisions in your life.
2. Those decisions are a factor in your present dilemma(s).
3. So, you're personally responsible.
4. So, you're to blame.
5. Lesson: get good, get smart, get better, don't screw up , stop doing stupid.

How do you respond?


But, when I ask these conservatives in my past to explain the series of sub-optimal decisions, what I did wrong and why they won't do it. They'll do a complete song and dance instead of sitting down and explaining things outright to me.

And, they never explain what other decisions I could've made and how could I have known the sub-optimal decisions in my life were really sub-optimal.

And, they never ever want to explain how to go forward.

In essence, I can't make good decisions in my life if I don't always know what the good decisions are and they aren't explained to me. Yes, there are obvious ones like don't do drugs but then there are non-obvious ones.

Conservative's perfectionist demands of people are impossible.


Lot of their values are also ableist as well because how the hell do you get smart if you have a low IQ or if you have a learning disability that impacts your learning? It can even keep you from being able to do college. How is this any of my fault? How do you take responsibility for all this?

Back in my teens I did literally try to get rid of my learning disability by trying well trying harder lmao. I failed big time. What a conservative view I had then and I was also an ableist on myself as well. Just try harder. You are not trying hard enough if you keep failing.

This is why I am always surprised when a disabled person is conservative or supports anyone who is against them when they are on disability or have limitations. I mean dude, most of them are against you because in their eyes, you are lazy and didn't try hard enough and they hate they are paying for your life if you are playing video games because you are unable to work. What do conservatives want you to do? Just stare at the wall and do nothing? This is classism right here also. If a politician is wanting to cut your benefits and you are disabled and rely on them to live, how can you still be supporting them and vote for them? (I mean any politician in general, not the Orange Man).

Only ones who seems to be more conservative are the ones who succeeded so they look down on others with a disability. I have even seen some of these comments here as well.

And funny enough, I grew up in a conservative area and my school was the one to give any student help that was struggling, even the ones with a low IQ but were not low enough to be mentally disabled. How strange. I guess they wanted us to succeed and not be on benefits so they helped us. We even had job training for students in the resource room because they wanted us to succeed and these were all uneducated jobs and low waged ones. :?

I used to think just as long as I was working, I wouldn't be lazy but I never thought there were people out there that still thought you were lazy if you were working 3 jobs or 80 hours a week to live or if you worked 8 hrs and still got benefits because you can't work 7 days a week and work 3 jobs or else you would shut down because it would be too much for you. I had no idea there were people that were against welfare and benefits and people getting childcare assistants. So much hostility towards those with disabilities like me. :( I don't drink or do drugs or blow all my money on wants, I have always paid my bills first but this isn't good enough. :(


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TheRobotLives
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27 Nov 2020, 10:05 pm

League_Girl wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Some conservatives argue:

1. You made a series of sub-optimal decisions in your life.
2. Those decisions are a factor in your present dilemma(s).
3. So, you're personally responsible.
4. So, you're to blame.
5. Lesson: get good, get smart, get better, don't screw up , stop doing stupid.

How do you respond?


But, when I ask these conservatives in my past to explain the series of sub-optimal decisions, what I did wrong and why they won't do it. They'll do a complete song and dance instead of sitting down and explaining things outright to me.

And, they never explain what other decisions I could've made and how could I have known the sub-optimal decisions in my life were really sub-optimal.

And, they never ever want to explain how to go forward.

In essence, I can't make good decisions in my life if I don't always know what the good decisions are and they aren't explained to me. Yes, there are obvious ones like don't do drugs but then there are non-obvious ones.

Conservative's perfectionist demands of people are impossible.


Lot of their values are also ableist as well because how the hell do you get smart if you have a low IQ or if you have a learning disability that impacts your learning? It can even keep you from being able to do college. How is this any of my fault? How do you take responsibility for all this?

Back in my teens I did literally try to get rid of my learning disability by trying well trying harder lmao. I failed big time. What a conservative view I had then and I was also an ableist on myself as well. Just try harder. You are not trying hard enough if you keep failing.

This is why I am always surprised when a disabled person is conservative or supports anyone who is against them when they are on disability or have limitations. I mean dude, most of them are against you because in their eyes, you are lazy and didn't try hard enough and they hate they are paying for your life if you are playing video games because you are unable to work. What do conservatives want you to do? Just stare at the wall and do nothing? This is classism right here also. If a politician is wanting to cut your benefits and you are disabled and rely on them to live, how can you still be supporting them and vote for them? (I mean any politician in general, not the Orange Man).

Only ones who seems to be more conservative are the ones who succeeded so they look down on others with a disability. I have even seen some of these comments here as well.

And funny enough, I grew up in a conservative area and my school was the one to give any student help that was struggling, even the ones with a low IQ but were not low enough to be mentally disabled. How strange. I guess they wanted us to succeed and not be on benefits so they helped us. We even had job training for students in the resource room because they wanted us to succeed and these were all uneducated jobs and low waged ones. :?

I used to think just as long as I was working, I wouldn't be lazy but I never thought there were people out there that still thought you were lazy if you were working 3 jobs or 80 hours a week to live or if you worked 8 hrs and still got benefits because you can't work 7 days a week and work 3 jobs or else you would shut down because it would be too much for you. I had no idea there were people that were against welfare and benefits and people getting childcare assistants. So much hostility towards those with disabilities like me. :( I don't drink or do drugs or blow all my money on wants, I have always paid my bills first but this isn't good enough. :(

Maybe you're fully responsible, and this discussion isn't applicable to you.

However, it does apply to many others.

I watch conservative life coach Dave Ramsey youtube show, and everyday people call about the stupid/irresponsible stuff they did, and how they're suffering, because they did stupid stuff in their lives.

He teaches people to pursue self-sufficiency by taking personal responsibility for their decisions.

This is a real tragic one .. $380,000 in debt, and still in college, planning on years of more student debt for a business management degree.


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AngelRho
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28 Nov 2020, 1:59 am

Dave Ramsey is good stuff.

Personal responsibility in student loans just means I signed the papers, I took the money, I earned the degree. I agreed to pay it back.

Dave Ramsey focuses on the debtor, not those who issue the debt, and I do think it’s worth considering at least philosophically. Ramsey, for instance, has raised the question of why anyone would just give a teenager that much money, not ask whether he can ever pay it back, not assess any risk, not look at if he’s spending the money to keep grades up or partying, etc. I would go a step further and suggest that organizations who LEND young people money are actually predatory by nature.

Unlike Ramsey, I don’t see debt as inherently evil. It could be treated as an investment that banks expect a return on at some point in the future. If banks have an actual stake in someone’s education and career, they might exert some influence over the individual to ensure some degree of success. Anyone who HAS loans knows this is not actual reality. Coupled with the above-mentioned predatory targeting of young people who are notoriously naive and impressionable, I fully support cancelling all student loans.

But after cancelling debt, I think the system should be revamped to make student loans more difficult to get and keep. Lenders should monitor where their money is going and keep a tight reign on students. That way, riskier students don’t drop out of school with a terrible debt load, and successful students are able to pay back loans much faster.

Ramsey doesn’t assume all kids even should go to college. There are better ways to go to school through scholarships, grants, work study, part time jobs, alternating semesters, military service, etc. Lifelong debt need not enter the conversation.



cubedemon6073
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28 Nov 2020, 8:40 am

one example of what I deal with on conservatives.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/t ... s-to-cuck/



KT67
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28 Nov 2020, 8:47 am

Capitalism assumes everyone has the same abilities in life to make a go of it.

Then when it's proven wrong, they blame the individual.

However, you can make the decisions 'to the best of your ability' with your disabilities, opportunities in life, discrimination factors and finances in mind. This tends to look more like day to day decisions than judging an overall life. It doesn't look like comparing it with others - nobody is exactly the same.



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28 Nov 2020, 10:13 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
one example of what I deal with on conservatives.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/t ... s-to-cuck/

This discussion does not seem to be about personal responsibility.


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Last edited by TheRobotLives on 28 Nov 2020, 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

KT67
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28 Nov 2020, 10:18 am

Even for the individual actually.

If someone has a disorder like a mood disorder, you can't judge their good and bad days as the same.

That's why degenerative disorders are so hard/sad. The exact same person is less and less capable.



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28 Nov 2020, 10:20 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
one example of what I deal with on conservatives.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/t ... s-to-cuck/


What a toxic shithole. Do enjoy dealing with it? If not, why torture yourself dealing with people who think that being rude and insulting makes up for being utterly wrong?



AngelRho
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28 Nov 2020, 12:58 pm

KT67 wrote:
Capitalism assumes everyone has the same abilities in life to make a go of it.

Then when it's proven wrong, they blame the individual.

However, you can make the decisions 'to the best of your ability' with your disabilities, opportunities in life, discrimination factors and finances in mind. This tends to look more like day to day decisions than judging an overall life. It doesn't look like comparing it with others - nobody is exactly the same.

Capitalism assumes no such thing. It simply puts everyone on the same playing field. It never assumes: Ability, intrinsic value, deserving. In other words, everyone gets to play; they just don’t alter the field to favor any one person over the other. The great thing about that field is there’s no need to assume that the game being played is zero sum. Everyone CAN get what they want. You can’t blame the individual for being disabled. But you can blame any individual for any action/inaction within his level of ability. I hear people whine about entitlement and participation trophies. Well...it’s kinda like running a marathon. Pretty much anyone who trains for 3-4 months can do it. Forget about elite runners who partially earn a living finishing in the top 3. You don’t get your finisher’s medal if you DON’T FINISH. The beauty of capitalism is how it favors individuals within the scope of their capabilities. There’s something for everyone. There really aren’t any losers, only different objective levels of winning.

I think what puts some people off with capitalism is that it does reward exceptional people, like how elite marathon runners typically earn cash awards at races. Most runners do it for bragging rights, bucket list, personal fitness goals, fundraising, etc. Most participants are aware that they won’t become billionaires or even millionaires. But it does allow them to achieve satisfying personal goals in line with their values. Exceptionally gifted participants have to be exceptionally rewarded to keep things interesting and exciting. The disabled, least experienced, slow, and less privileged/deserving carry the lowest expectations, yes, but that also means they aren’t crushed by the system. Heck, I’ve even been passed by wheelchairs and baby strollers on the road. The same is possible in capitalism because ultimately the only expectations that matter are the ones you place on yourself. If your financial performance goals are simply to do better than the last cycle, you always end up meeting and exceeding those goals at some point, like how runners predict future performance based on previous personal best. As you move the needle from one cycle to the next, you ultimately overtake some participants because of different goals and values.

What you are personally responsible for are having realistic, reasonable goals, values, expectations, and working towards all those things.

The awesome thing about capitalism is that it places an emphasis on value. Disabled people, family members, friends, the elderly, etc. all possess inherent value. It is the personal responsibility of participants to reasonably assess one’s own value for others. If my family is trapped in a burning house, I’m not going to waste time evacuating my next-door neighbors. I’m not going to rescue perfect strangers ahead of those I love the most. It’s nothing personal, it’s just a healthy part of our coexistence. Or if my mom was a perfectly worthless b!tch to me growing up and cusses my wife, I’m certainly not going to have her move in with us when she starts showing signs of dementia. Nobody is entitled to special treatment just because we share DNA. I would take care of mom because I love my mom. I wouldn’t be able to handle abandoning someone who always made such a positive impact on my life and contributed to my success. I’d have betrayed my own values if I left her on her own. And so capitalism does more for generosity and love than any other alternative.

If capitalism seems broken or favors certain people over others, I would ask why. The sick and disabled are still valuable people and deserve care when they cannot participate or help themselves. What ends up happening is you have a tiny minority of people who have ideas on who deserves what and will work to get law and justice on their side. They interfere with the natural process so that people who WANT to help aren’t allowed to, and people who make poor decisions only thrive because the government props them up with tax money. We have supercomputers, the internet, and space probes, but somehow we’re still dependent on the internal combustion engine for ground transportation? How does that even make sense in this century? And you find that fossil fuels and machine manufacturers have so many direct ties to government that prevents innovation and competing technologies—not to mention the frequent disasters that happen when government DOES get directly involved in funding competing tech (hello, Solyndra?). A key point to remember is crony capitalism is NOT capitalism. It’s subtle socialism. When capitalism appears to fail, there is almost ALWAYS a cause rooted in government regulation and interference. What government does, among other things, is absolve individuals of personal responsibility. It assigns common enemies to make low-performers and no-performers “victims” of an unfair system. Winners can only win if they somehow cheat, not if they actually have real merit. If you are poor, it’s because successful people MADE you that way. It’s this mentality, the artificial creation of a victim class with a common enemy and the elimination of personal responsibility, that perhaps does the greatest harm to progress. Capitalism doesn’t create these problems. Enemies of capitalism do.



cubedemon6073
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28 Nov 2020, 2:13 pm

Quote:
Capitalism assumes no such thing. It simply puts everyone on the same playing field.


How are we all on the same level playing field?

Quote:
It never assumes: Ability, intrinsic value, deserving. In other words, everyone gets to play; they just don’t alter the field to favor any one person over the other.


How do you figure this if those in the 1 percent can pay their way to do exactly that?

Quote:
The great thing about that field is there’s no need to assume that the game being played is zero sum. Everyone CAN get what they want.


How do you derive this? Everyone wants a million dollars? Can everyone achieve this? How? And, if everyone did then wouldn't being rich be redefined anyway?

Quote:
You can’t blame the individual for being disabled. But you can blame any individual for any action/inaction within his level of ability.


Who decides the level of ability? How is the level of ability decided?


Quote:
I hear people whine about entitlement and participation trophies. Well...it’s kinda like running a marathon. Pretty much anyone who trains for 3-4 months can do it. Forget about elite runners who partially earn a living finishing in the top 3. You don’t get your finisher’s medal if you DON’T FINISH.


True!

Boomers whine about participation trophies all the time but who were the ones who decided to give them? Who came up with the idea of them?

Quote:
The beauty of capitalism is how it favors individuals within the scope of their capabilities.


How is this so?

Quote:
There’s something for everyone.


How is this so? And, I have a job in China so I seem to be getting more out of Communist China then Capitalist USA.



Quote:
There really aren’t any losers, only different objective levels of winning.


How do you figure this?

Quote:
I think what puts some people off with capitalism is that it does reward exceptional people, like how elite marathon runners typically earn cash awards at races. Most runners do it for bragging rights, bucket list, personal fitness goals, fundraising, etc. Most participants are aware that they won’t become billionaires or even millionaires.


But, didn't you say that capitalism allows anyone to get what they want? People want to become millionaires and billionaires. So, can anyone and everyone achieve this yes or no?

Quote:
But it does allow them to achieve satisfying personal goals in line with their values.


But, what if certain values I have contradict some of capitalism's tenets? Now what?

Quote:
Exceptionally gifted participants have to be exceptionally rewarded to keep things interesting and exciting.


Why?

Quote:
The disabled, least experienced, slow, and less privileged/deserving carry the lowest expectations, yes, but that also means they aren’t crushed by the system.


How do you figure this as so?

Quote:
Heck, I’ve even been passed by wheelchairs and baby strollers on the road. The same is possible in capitalism because ultimately the only expectations that matter are the ones you place on yourself.


How do you come to this conclusion?

Quote:
If your financial performance goals are simply to do better than the last cycle, you always end up meeting and exceeding those goals at some point, like how runners predict future performance based on previous personal best.


Yet, aren't we all told that we're guaranteed nothing in life? So, how do always end up meeting and exceeding these goals at some point no matter what we do or don't do?

Quote:
As you move the needle from one cycle to the next, you ultimately overtake some participants because of different goals and values.


Maybe! Maybe not!

Quote:
What you are personally responsible for are having realistic, reasonable goals, values, expectations, and working towards all those things.


And, therein lies the conundrum. If my mind is compromised due to my disability then how can I truthfully have realistic, reasonable goals, values, expectations and be expected to work towards these things? If my mind is compromised then how can I really suss out what is what?

Quote:
The awesome thing about capitalism is that it places an emphasis on value. Disabled people, family members, friends, the elderly, etc. all possess inherent value.


How does it do so if the value is actually what a person produces not on anything else. A person is considered a commodity in a capitalistic system.

Quote:
It is the personal responsibility of participants to reasonably assess one’s own value for others. If my family is trapped in a burning house, I’m not going to waste time evacuating my next-door neighbors. I’m not going to rescue perfect strangers ahead of those I love the most. It’s nothing personal, it’s just a healthy part of our coexistence. Or if my mom was a perfectly worthless b!tch to me growing up and cusses my wife, I’m certainly not going to have her move in with us when she starts showing signs of dementia. Nobody is entitled to special treatment just because we share DNA. I would take care of mom because I love my mom. I wouldn’t be able to handle abandoning someone who always made such a positive impact on my life and contributed to my success. I’d have betrayed my own values if I left her on her own. And so capitalism does more for generosity and love than any other alternative.


This isn't capitalism at all. How you get from an economic system to morality I have no clue.

Quote:
If capitalism seems broken or favors certain people over others, I would ask why.


I would and do as well.

Quote:
The sick and disabled are still valuable people and deserve care when they cannot participate or help themselves.


That's not how a number of others see it.

Quote:
What ends up happening is you have a tiny minority of people who have ideas on who deserves what and will work to get law and justice on their side.


And, how do you know this?

Quote:
They interfere with the natural process so that people who WANT to help aren’t allowed to, and people who make poor decisions only thrive because the government props them up with tax money.


And, do we all make good decisions all the time. I don't. I'm not God.

Quote:
We have supercomputers, the internet, and space probes, but somehow we’re still dependent on the internal combustion engine for ground transportation? How does that even make sense in this century?


Good question! Why don't you explain it to us?

Quote:
And you find that fossil fuels and machine manufacturers have so many direct ties to government that prevents innovation and competing technologies—not to mention the frequent disasters that happen when government DOES get directly involved in funding competing tech (hello, Solyndra?). A key point to remember is crony capitalism is NOT capitalism. It’s subtle socialism.



And guess what? There are plenty of communists who claim that the USSR communism was not true communism? What exactly is true capitalism and what exactly is true communism?

Quote:
When capitalism appears to fail, there is almost ALWAYS a cause rooted in government regulation and interference.


We had the capitalism in the 19th century you described. That's why we have the regs we have today. Have you not read about the robber barons?

Quote:
What government does, among other things, is absolve individuals of personal responsibility. It assigns common enemies to make low-performers and no-performers “victims” of an unfair system.


And, if you can't perform then how can they win? Become better performers? And, if they try and can't then what?

Quote:
Winners can only win if they somehow cheat, not if they actually have real merit. If you are poor, it’s because successful people MADE you that way. It’s this mentality, the artificial creation of a victim class with a common enemy and the elimination of personal responsibility, that perhaps does the greatest harm to progress. Capitalism doesn’t create these problems. Enemies of capitalism do.
[/quote][/quote]

Conservative propaganda anyone?

Yet, doesn't the Bible the very word of God you believe in say this right here?

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-s ... -poor.html

How do you reconcile this with capitalism when they are diametrically opposed?



KT67
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28 Nov 2020, 5:22 pm

I want any aspies/HFA and especially LFA people reading this to know that if they fail to find employment within a system which is kind of an anti-system primarily full of NTs and 'majority led', based on who the favourite candidate for a job is, that does not make them a failure of a human being.

People have value beyond that.

All humans have value.

I want any aspies/HFA and (unlikely) LFA people who do really well in the system to know that they had to try harder than many other people did. And to be proud of that fact that they did try so hard and succeeded. I esp want LFA people to know that. Even if it's just having a job, doesn't matter which one it is, don't beat yourself up because it's not a high powered job.

If the system was more in our favour, more people would have jobs and be aspie/autistic.



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28 Nov 2020, 5:47 pm

I am diagnosed with AS.

I failed through life.

I always wished I could be smart and successful.

When I was young I would go to school, and repeat things my parents would say, so kids would think I was smart.

Teachers and kids made fun of me and that hurt.

I was fired from many jobs, and laughed at in interviews.

However, now I work a part time, work at home STEM technical writing job, and PRAY I can hold it for years.

Honestly, I am not on par with NT people for many skills.

However, I seem to have an autistic talent of taking in information, and putting into an order, like new information really matters to me. So, I seem to spend much more time processing it than a typical NT person.

Likely, I see connections in data others don't, because their minds seem to process information more casually.


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KT67
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28 Nov 2020, 5:55 pm

What I'm saying is I think it is better on a psychological level not to see it as 'I failed'.

And it is important that those the system doesn't work for who don't have families to give them help can still survive.



KT67
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28 Nov 2020, 6:07 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Exceptionally gifted participants have to be exceptionally rewarded to keep things interesting and exciting.

.


How come most of the super rich jobs are really good fun and most of the minimum wage jobs are the opposite?

A footballer, an actor, a pop star etc are doing things that poorer people would do in their spare time.

Of course, so does a cleaner (cleaning) or fast food worker (cooking) but people consider that a 'chore'. Not a 'hobby'.

Rich people's jobs seem exciting/fun enough without the payment tbh.



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28 Nov 2020, 8:22 pm

KT67 wrote:
Capitalism assumes everyone has the same abilities in life to make a go of it.


Couldn't be further from the truth. Capitalism assumes people have unequal abilities, and that people with greater abilities will prosper more. Ability is a product of talent and hard work.

No one reasonable thinks anyone who trains hard can equal Usain Bolt's sprinting speed. No one reasonable thinks Usain Bolt doesn't train really hard.


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29 Nov 2020, 12:28 am

They do say capitalism fails on the 1% so that means I am the 1%.


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