Page 1 of 2 [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Angnix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,243
Location: Michigan

21 Jan 2021, 6:14 pm

People on a local news site are complaining about Biden stopping the drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge because "now gas will be higher"...

All I stated was people need to get away from oil dependence because it's a limited resource...

I got laugh and angry reacted by so many people, even my own cousin...

What's wrong with what I said?


_________________
Crazy Bird Lady!! !
Also likes Pokemon

Avatar: A Shiny from the new Pokemon Pearl remake, Shiny Chatot... I named him TaterTot...

FINALLY diagnosed with ASD 2/6/2020


League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,317
Location: Pacific Northwest

21 Jan 2021, 6:24 pm

Not everyone can go out and buy an electric car. Not everyone can just commute if they don't live where there is transportation or reliable ones. Not everyone can Uber or Lyft and, nor can they afford it all the time and it's not always reliable either.

Until all cars become electric, people can't just stop using gas for their cars if cars are still a necessity in the US.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.


Angnix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,243
Location: Michigan

21 Jan 2021, 7:04 pm

Not nessesary to destroy wilderness for it though!


_________________
Crazy Bird Lady!! !
Also likes Pokemon

Avatar: A Shiny from the new Pokemon Pearl remake, Shiny Chatot... I named him TaterTot...

FINALLY diagnosed with ASD 2/6/2020


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:      

21 Jan 2021, 7:10 pm

Angnix wrote:
People on a local news site are complaining about Biden stopping the drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge because "now gas will be higher"...

All I stated was people need to get away from oil dependence because it's a limited resource...

I got laugh and angry reacted by so many people, even my own cousin...

What's wrong with what I said?
There is nothing wrong with what you said -- it was factually correct. 

I would guess that those other people do not share your interest in wildlife and the environment.  They seem more concerned with the economy.


_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.


League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,317
Location: Pacific Northwest

21 Jan 2021, 7:12 pm

Fnord wrote:
Angnix wrote:
People on a local news site are complaining about Biden stopping the drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge because "now gas will be higher"...

All I stated was people need to get away from oil dependence because it's a limited resource...

I got laugh and angry reacted by so many people, even my own cousin...

What's wrong with what I said?
There is nothing wrong with what you said -- it was factually correct. 

I would guess that those other people do not share your interest in wildlife and the environment.  They seem more concerned with the economy.



Or concerned they wouldn't be able to get to work anymore or go to the store and places where they need to go?

Only way to change that is if we change how we make cars and make them be all electrified and change how we make fuel and it will take a while for it to take affect before everyone will have cars that take gasoline not made from oil or have electric cars.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

21 Jan 2021, 7:14 pm

What we need....is as many charging station as there are gas stations.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

21 Jan 2021, 7:17 pm

I would like to nominate this thread in the category "Best Thread Title in 2021". :D



Jiheisho
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2020
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,507

21 Jan 2021, 7:26 pm

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what you said. Not drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge will not be the reason for higher gas prices. But actually, higher gas prices is a good thing.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

21 Jan 2021, 7:37 pm

Nothing is wrong with what you said. I certainly would rather have a habitable planet than cheaper gas.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

21 Jan 2021, 7:39 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Not everyone can go out and buy an electric car. Not everyone can just commute if they don't live where there is transportation or reliable ones. Not everyone can Uber or Lyft and, nor can they afford it all the time and it's not always reliable either.

Until all cars become electric, people can't just stop using gas for their cars if cars are still a necessity in the US.


Well, obviously it will take time to move away from oil dependence, but if we want the planet to remain habitable it is essential. I do not think anyone is suggesting everyone just instantly stop driving their car and get an electric one.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Bravo5150
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Aug 2019
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,669

21 Jan 2021, 7:41 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
What we need....is as many charging station as there are gas stations.


Most charging stations I have seen have been at restaurants that are not fast food. Most likely because it takes about as much time to charge a battery as it does to order l, receive, and eat an appetizer, entree, and dessert.



Redd_Kross
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Jun 2020
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,450
Location: Derby, UK

21 Jan 2021, 8:16 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Not everyone can go out and buy an electric car. Not everyone can just commute if they don't live where there is transportation or reliable ones. Not everyone can Uber or Lyft and, nor can they afford it all the time and it's not always reliable either.

Until all cars become electric, people can't just stop using gas for their cars if cars are still a necessity in the US.

Cheap fossil fuel is only a short term solution, and other options are rapidly gaining ground. One of the few plus points of the Covid-19 crisis has been in demonstrating that a lot of office workers don't actually need to work in an office, most of the time, so simply not commuting has considerable environmental merit.

Electric power is only a partial fix in any case, its only real advantages lie in efficiencies of scale from generating in big power stations rather than running lots of little power plants on the roads. That also opens up the possibility of using wave, wind and solar -generated power to charge your vehicle. But in practice the manufacture of a lot of this kit isn't very energy efficient, there's a reliance on rare metals in the battery tech, and some "eco" equipment such as wind turbines aren't designed to be recycled when they're life expired. There's also a lot of reliance on nuclear power which is great provided it doesn't go wrong AND we can safely look after the waste for thousands of years without doing anything stupid. So no flaws in that plan, then.

It's going to take some radical thinking to move green power generation forward. If we accept that some short-term environmental manufacturing cost is inevitable, the key factor becomes getting the maximum long term return for it, ready for when the fossil fuels run out. What's the best position we can get ourselves in before the coal and oil supplies are exhausted?

One option I like, conceptually, is to make the roads and sidewalks huge, linear solar panels. We've covered an awful lot of the planet in asphalt, why not make better use of it? Not sure how well that stacks up in terms of future generating potential vs. manufacturing environmental cost, though.

It would also make sense to concentrate technology where it does the most good. Wind turbines in the world's windiest places, solar panels in the world's sunniest places, wave generators (possibly combined with plastic traps) in the world's choppiest locations. But that'll take a lot more cooperation than anyone seems capable of right now.

I'm also interested in technology that extracts more benefit from the fossil fuel we have left. It's on borrowed time, why waste it? The new Koenigsegg power plant that uses individual valve control to extract 600bhp out of a small, lightweight 2-litre power plant seems to have a lot of potential there. Obviously they're a top-end car company but in a couple of years could we be seeing very high efficiency, small, lightweight 750cc, 150bhp engines in ordinary cars? Possibly double the fuel economy we see today?

The big elephants in the room are population growth and its close friend perpetual economic growth. Any efforts to address those would immediately trigger libertarian protestors accusing everyone of "fascism" in interfering with their freedoms, but when that's basically their freedom to bugger everything up for future generations I'd argue it's probably time to shut up and grow up. Actually getting anyone to agree on anything internationally, though, would be one hell of a challenge.



League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,317
Location: Pacific Northwest

21 Jan 2021, 9:14 pm

I dont disagree with OP, I am just saying people can't just stop using oil if they live where cars are a necessity. I think that is why her family got offended.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

21 Jan 2021, 10:51 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I dont disagree with OP, I am just saying people can't just stop using oil if they live where cars are a necessity. I think that is why her family got offended.


Not destroying the alaskan wildlife refuge for oil, is not going to stop people who need gasoline getting it, seems their family is kinda jumping to conclusions.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,186
Location: Adelaide, Australia

22 Jan 2021, 2:03 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
What we need....is as many charging station as there are gas stations.

Also cities that are less car dependent. Owning a a car should be an option, not a necessity.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


FiruthiDragovic
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

Joined: 12 Jan 2021
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 21

22 Jan 2021, 5:17 am

......yyyyyyyeah, oil dependence issues are yet another on the long list of reasons why I would need to move elsewhere in order to be eco-friendly. I've checked the distribution of charging stations in my area. There isn't one for a good 20 miles in either direction. Heck, there's only two gas stations on a good 30-mile strip of road.

Not to mention I'm not in control of the house so I can't just install the right jack.

AND mine's an area that experiences winter power outages, which means a solution has to involve retrofitting the house to be extremely well-insulated (which, to be fair, is something already done in my current residence) and possibly with good backups that unfortunately ALSO rely on rare metals.

It IS a limited resource, and I know it. Your statement isn't WRONG, if I had to take a guess it doesn't reflect local realities.


And regarding the economy comment - the logic is "if people are well-off they'll consider for efficiency and sustainability, if people are suffering financially they'll just use the cheap destructive stuff because it's easier". I don't know if they're smart enough to know that... and I wager that solving for that equation requires more personal involvement than they've ever seen in their lives.

I will tell you it's not MY prices that I'm worried about here. I have ways to cover that. I'm guessing a lot of these people do not, or they personally know people for whom it's not an option.


Redd_Kross wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Not everyone can go out and buy an electric car. Not everyone can just commute if they don't live where there is transportation or reliable ones. Not everyone can Uber or Lyft and, nor can they afford it all the time and it's not always reliable either.

Until all cars become electric, people can't just stop using gas for their cars if cars are still a necessity in the US.

Cheap fossil fuel is only a short term solution, and other options are rapidly gaining ground. One of the few plus points of the Covid-19 crisis has been in demonstrating that a lot of office workers don't actually need to work in an office, most of the time, so simply not commuting has considerable environmental merit.

Electric power is only a partial fix in any case, its only real advantages lie in efficiencies of scale from generating in big power stations rather than running lots of little power plants on the roads. That also opens up the possibility of using wave, wind and solar -generated power to charge your vehicle. But in practice the manufacture of a lot of this kit isn't very energy efficient, there's a reliance on rare metals in the battery tech, and some "eco" equipment such as wind turbines aren't designed to be recycled when they're life expired. There's also a lot of reliance on nuclear power which is great provided it doesn't go wrong AND we can safely look after the waste for thousands of years without doing anything stupid. So no flaws in that plan, then.

It's going to take some radical thinking to move green power generation forward. If we accept that some short-term environmental manufacturing cost is inevitable, the key factor becomes getting the maximum long term return for it, ready for when the fossil fuels run out. What's the best position we can get ourselves in before the coal and oil supplies are exhausted?

One option I like, conceptually, is to make the roads and sidewalks huge, linear solar panels. We've covered an awful lot of the planet in asphalt, why not make better use of it? Not sure how well that stacks up in terms of future generating potential vs. manufacturing environmental cost, though.

It would also make sense to concentrate technology where it does the most good. Wind turbines in the world's windiest places, solar panels in the world's sunniest places, wave generators (possibly combined with plastic traps) in the world's choppiest locations. But that'll take a lot more cooperation than anyone seems capable of right now.

I'm also interested in technology that extracts more benefit from the fossil fuel we have left. It's on borrowed time, why waste it? The new Koenigsegg power plant that uses individual valve control to extract 600bhp out of a small, lightweight 2-litre power plant seems to have a lot of potential there. Obviously they're a top-end car company but in a couple of years could we be seeing very high efficiency, small, lightweight 750cc, 150bhp engines in ordinary cars? Possibly double the fuel economy we see today?

The big elephants in the room are population growth and its close friend perpetual economic growth. Any efforts to address those would immediately trigger libertarian protestors accusing everyone of "fascism" in interfering with their freedoms, but when that's basically their freedom to bugger everything up for future generations I'd argue it's probably time to shut up and grow up. Actually getting anyone to agree on anything internationally, though, would be one hell of a challenge.


You gonna have any objections if I include nuclear reactors in the solutions to oil dependence? I ask because I'm trying to also account for areas that aren't good for ANY of the "standard" green energy solutions. It's not exactly a renewable source but the idea is to buy time for a renewable that actually DOES work there.

And regarding rare metals... I think Toyota and a few other companies were working on that. Not just trying other materials, but also something about the "grain size" when I tried to look up rechargeables that didn't use rare metals? Not sure about this.

Re: perpetual economic growth. The fact that digital currencies exist tells me that they can have that cake and eat it too and STILL be eco-friendly.