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Brictoria
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13 Feb 2021, 7:20 pm


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"When people express opinions that differ from yours, take it as a chance to grow. Seek to understand over being understood. Be curious, not defensive. The only way to disarm another human being is by listening." - Glennon Doyle Melton

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"Never forget that you have every right to question any individual, system, movement, or group that only tolerates you when you think and behave exactly like them" - Africa Brooke

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“There was a saying that a man's true character was revealed in defeat. I thought it was also revealed in victory.”
― Alison Goodman, Eon: Dragoneye Reborn


cyberdad
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13 Feb 2021, 7:43 pm

The faux outrage over Disney's dismissal of Carano can be easily dissolved with a simple google search
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... tito-ortiz

Quote: Arguably one of the most well-known MMA figures to promote QAnon is Gina Carano, the retired fighter turned actor currently starring in Disney’s The Mandalorian. Once considered a MMA darling, Carano has spent the last few months peddling conspiracy theories on social media, including posts about QAnon and child trafficking. Most recently, the hashtag #FireGinaCarano was trending on social media after Carano posted a series of anti-mask memes and retweeted posts denying the outcome of the presidential election.

Certain posters here pretending Disney are cancelling Carano's right to free speech. Carano's foray into QAnon happened during her conrtact for filming with the Mandalorian which would have caught the Disney execs by surprise. Her support for the Jan 6 criminals was probably the last straw.

So in conclusion Disney acted in accordance with any large organisation to distance itself from people associated with dangerous cults/conspiracies that promote violence against the nation and threaten national security. It should not be a shock that people defending Carano are also likely to be the same type to defend MAGA philosophy, QAnon and the Capitol storming.



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13 Feb 2021, 7:48 pm

To All Who Defend Ms. Carano: Just whom are you trying to convince?  DisneyCo has already made its decision and followed through on it, so if you are as deeply concerned for Ms. Carano as your posts seem to indicated, then do something constructive about it!

I sincerely doubt that anyone who even works for DisneyCo has ever visited this website; if they have, I also sincerely doubt that anything you have posted here is worth any of them acting upon or even replying to.

Maybe if you approach DisneyCo's leadership directly and plead your case to them you might get Ms. Carano reinstated ... but I doubt it.  There is no reason why anyone making millions of dollars each year directing a multi-billion dollar global corporation would ever consider anything posted on this website to have any value in their corporation's day-to-day operation.  There is no reason to believe that any member of this website could even secure a 15-minute interview with Robert Eiger to discuss Ms. Carano's re-instatement.

None of us matters to DisneyCo.

CyberDad wrote:
Disney acted in accordance with any large organisation to distance itself from people associated with dangerous cults/conspiracies that promote violence against the nation and threaten national security.  It should not be a shock that people defending Carano are also likely to be the same type to defend MAGA philosophy, QAnon and the Capitol storming.
↑ Quoted for Truth.


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Last edited by Fnord on 13 Feb 2021, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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13 Feb 2021, 7:50 pm

Brictoria wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The Confederate flag and blackface are not “fundamentally inoffensive.”

In fact, all that you mentioned are not “fundamentally inoffensive” when judged objectively.

I’m talking about something like the word “niggardly,” which has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the N-word, despite the resemblance in spelling.


The problem seems to be that some people have a problem with being able to seperate "offensive speech" from "speech which offends them"...

In this case, some have taken an observation that (objectively, based on the actual words used) appears to be trying to show how encouraging "hatred" of a group for a given (shared) characteristic can lead to violence against them, and have decided it is "offensive" to them...

What reason they could find to see a message such as this, which appears aimed at trying to lessen the hatred being demonstrated, as offensive would be an interesting question:
Could it be that they don't see hatred towards members of a group for their political beliefs as being "wrong" (regardless of which beliefs they hold)?
Could it be that they don't see hatred towards members of a given group because of their specific political beliefs as being wrong (but the same actions towards members of another group would be wrong)?
Could it be that they have attributed a specific group as the intended "victims" in the quote, but have spent years demonising them and referring to them in a specific manner, where this quote would suggest that their own actions allign with the manner in which they had previously described the "victims"?
Or is there some other reason?

My personal thoughts: If you have a problem with a group's beliefs, showing hatred towards the members of the group (treating the "person"\people in a way you would not wish to be treated yourself) is the best way to encourage both their decision to hold onto their belief, as well as to also fight back, leading to violence. If the effort put into attacking the "people" was instead turned to the subject of their individual beliefs, trying to understand what led to them, rather than simply placing a subjective (and, if you disagree with the group, this is liable to be generally a negative) basis for them, you are more likely to either convince them to change their beliefs, or possibly, find that the reason behind them isn't the sinsiter one you envisioned, and that possibly the idea they had was worthwhile...


All of which is very noble and I am sure you can invoke Voltaire and the speeches of the American founding fathers when freedom of speech aligns with your values Brictoria.

The problem is Carano has publicly aligned herself with known criminals in the QAnon movement and Disney is perfectly within their rights to part ways with her. The GOP could learn something from Disney.

Moaning about cancel culture doesn't apply in this instance as much as you would have us believe.,



cyberdad
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13 Feb 2021, 7:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
To All Who Defend Ms. Carano: Just whom are you trying to convince?  DisneyCo has already made its decision and followed through on it, so if you are as deeply concerned for Ms. Carano as your posts seem to indicated, then do something constructive about it!

I sincerely doubt that anyone who even works for DisneyCo has ever visited this website; if they have, I also sincerely doubt that anything you have posted here is worth any of them acting upon or even replying to.

Maybe if you approach DisneyCo's leadership directly and plead your case to them you might get Ms. Carano reinstated ... but I doubt it.  There is no reason why anyone making millions of dollars each year directing a multi-billion dollar global corporation would ever consider anything posted on this website to have any value in their corporation's day-to-day operation.  There is no reason to believe that any member of this website could even secure a 15-minute interview with Robert Eiger to discuss Ms. Carano's re-instatement.

None of us matters to DisneyCo.

CyberDad wrote:
Disney acted in accordance with any large organisation to distance itself from people associated with dangerous cults/conspiracies that promote violence against the nation and threaten national security.  It should not be a shock that people defending Carano are also likely to be the same type to defend MAGA philosophy, QAnon and the Capitol storming.
↑ Quoted for Truth.


Why bother? Carano's character of Cara Dune was crap. Her acting skills were substandard.



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13 Feb 2021, 7:57 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
To All Who Defend Ms. Carano: Just whom are you trying to convince?  DisneyCo has already made its decision and followed through on it, so if you are as deeply concerned for Ms. Carano as your posts seem to indicated, then do something constructive about it!

I sincerely doubt that anyone who even works for DisneyCo has ever visited this website; if they have, I also sincerely doubt that anything you have posted here is worth any of them acting upon or even replying to.

Maybe if you approach DisneyCo's leadership directly and plead your case to them you might get Ms. Carano reinstated ... but I doubt it.  There is no reason why anyone making millions of dollars each year directing a multi-billion dollar global corporation would ever consider anything posted on this website to have any value in their corporation's day-to-day operation.  There is no reason to believe that any member of this website could even secure a 15-minute interview with Robert Eiger to discuss Ms. Carano's re-instatement.

None of us matters to DisneyCo.

CyberDad wrote:
Disney acted in accordance with any large organisation to distance itself from people associated with dangerous cults/conspiracies that promote violence against the nation and threaten national security.  It should not be a shock that people defending Carano are also likely to be the same type to defend MAGA philosophy, QAnon and the Capitol storming.
↑ Quoted for Truth.
Why bother? Carano's character of Cara Dune was crap. Her acting skills were substandard.
Why bother?  Because if someone really has the courage of their convictions, they will act upon them; and if they do not, then they will continue to submit lame, whiny, useless posts that reveal how they are more concerned with having their political views "canceled" than they are with Ms. Carano's employment status.


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cyberdad
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13 Feb 2021, 8:11 pm

Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
To All Who Defend Ms. Carano: Just whom are you trying to convince?  DisneyCo has already made its decision and followed through on it, so if you are as deeply concerned for Ms. Carano as your posts seem to indicated, then do something constructive about it!

I sincerely doubt that anyone who even works for DisneyCo has ever visited this website; if they have, I also sincerely doubt that anything you have posted here is worth any of them acting upon or even replying to.

Maybe if you approach DisneyCo's leadership directly and plead your case to them you might get Ms. Carano reinstated ... but I doubt it.  There is no reason why anyone making millions of dollars each year directing a multi-billion dollar global corporation would ever consider anything posted on this website to have any value in their corporation's day-to-day operation.  There is no reason to believe that any member of this website could even secure a 15-minute interview with Robert Eiger to discuss Ms. Carano's re-instatement.

None of us matters to DisneyCo.

CyberDad wrote:
Disney acted in accordance with any large organisation to distance itself from people associated with dangerous cults/conspiracies that promote violence against the nation and threaten national security.  It should not be a shock that people defending Carano are also likely to be the same type to defend MAGA philosophy, QAnon and the Capitol storming.
↑ Quoted for Truth.
Why bother? Carano's character of Cara Dune was crap. Her acting skills were substandard.
Why bother?  Because if someone really has the courage of their convictions, they will act upon them; and if they do not, then they will continue to submit lame, whiny, useless posts that reveal how they are more concerned with having their political views "canceled" than they are with Ms. Carano's employment status.


True, let them go through the motions then...



Fnord
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13 Feb 2021, 8:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
To All Who Defend Ms. Carano: Just whom are you trying to convince?  DisneyCo has already made its decision and followed through on it, so if you are as deeply concerned for Ms. Carano as your posts seem to indicated, then do something constructive about it!  I sincerely doubt that anyone who even works for DisneyCo has ever visited this website; if they have, I also sincerely doubt that anything you have posted here is worth any of them acting upon or even replying to.  Maybe if you approach DisneyCo's leadership directly and plead your case to them you might get Ms. Carano reinstated ... but I doubt it.  There is no reason why anyone making millions of dollars each year directing a multi-billion dollar global corporation would ever consider anything posted on this website to have any value in their corporation's day-to-day operation.  There is no reason to believe that any member of this website could even secure a 15-minute interview with Robert Eiger to discuss Ms. Carano's re-instatement.  None of us matters to DisneyCo.
CyberDad wrote:
Disney acted in accordance with any large organisation to distance itself from people associated with dangerous cults/conspiracies that promote violence against the nation and threaten national security.  It should not be a shock that people defending Carano are also likely to be the same type to defend MAGA philosophy, QAnon and the Capitol storming.
↑ Quoted for Truth.
Why bother? Carano's character of Cara Dune was crap. Her acting skills were substandard.
Why bother?  Because if someone really has the courage of their convictions, they will act upon them; and if they do not, then they will continue to submit lame, whiny, useless posts that reveal how they are more concerned with having their political views "canceled" than they are with Ms. Carano's employment status.
True, let them go through the motions then...
Not being moderators, we have no other choice.


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cyberdad
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13 Feb 2021, 8:26 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
"Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle


That's precisely how Nazism arose in Germany in the 1930s. The population weren't vigilant and were easily primed/groomed to participate in mass murder.

Your defence of Carano is actually falling for the same cult like mental type who are likely to do the same thing if they ever take over America.



Brictoria
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13 Feb 2021, 9:28 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
"Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle


That's precisely how Nazism arose in Germany in the 1930s. The population weren't vigilant and were easily primed/groomed to participate in mass murder.


And yet, how were they able to come to the ability to do this? Was it, perhaps, because "dehumanising" a group of people based on a characteristic was allowed\endorsed\encouraged, resulting in attacks by members of the public on that group, gradually increasing until the "state" joined in?

It seems at present, a similar priming\grooming could also be considered to be occurring, with people (on all sides) attacking others for their beliefs (political rather than religious), merging them into a "group" to which they attribute to all members the worst traits they can find in any individual of which they have included in that group, or misrepresenting the groups beliefs\motivations based on faulty (whether by intention, or inadvertently through lack of understanding) assumptions and attributing those false beliefs to all members of the group...

Now that they aren't seen as individual people, but rather representatives of this "evil group", the freedom to attack them is permitted - They aren't "people", they're "MAGA"\"Libt..."\etc. - And how far is it from attacking them through words until they are physically attacked?

It wasn't that long ago that people with differing views were able to sit down together and discuss their differences and either come to an agreement or politely agree to disagree, with neither taking offence that the other didn't agree with them either in part or as a whole...


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Quote:
"When people express opinions that differ from yours, take it as a chance to grow. Seek to understand over being understood. Be curious, not defensive. The only way to disarm another human being is by listening." - Glennon Doyle Melton

Quote:
"Never forget that you have every right to question any individual, system, movement, or group that only tolerates you when you think and behave exactly like them" - Africa Brooke

Quote:
“There was a saying that a man's true character was revealed in defeat. I thought it was also revealed in victory.”
― Alison Goodman, Eon: Dragoneye Reborn


cyberdad
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13 Feb 2021, 10:50 pm

Brictoria wrote:
attacking others for their beliefs (political rather than religious), merging them into a "group" to which they attribute to all members the worst traits they can find in any individual of which they have included in that group, or misrepresenting the groups beliefs\motivations based on faulty (whether by intention, or inadvertently through lack of understanding) assumptions and attributing those false beliefs to all members of the group...

Now that they aren't seen as individual people, but rather representatives of this "evil group", the freedom to attack them is permitted - They aren't "people", they're "MAGA"\"Libt..."\etc. - And how far is it from attacking them through words until they are physically attacked?

It wasn't that long ago that people with differing views were able to sit down together and discuss their differences and either come to an agreement or politely agree to disagree, with neither taking offence that the other didn't agree with them either in part or as a whole...


I'll have to echo Fnord's view that those who feel that Carano (inlcuding Carano herself) need to make the case to Disney that she should be permitted to voice support for the capitol rioters and that her use of Nazi victims as a metaphor for the public condemnation of the rioters (the condemnation include members of the GOP and former associates of Trump) should be permitted under her right to free speech.

Curiously instead of trying to fix the situation Carano has only made things worse by asserting her questionable conduct by appearing on a Ben Shapiro's podcast spouting QAnon nonsense. I hardly think Disney are going to rush to her house and break down her door to get to her to sign a new contract when she doesn't seem particularly sorry.



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13 Feb 2021, 11:24 pm

She was either lessening what Nazis did, or doing some sort of conspiracy theory that there is going to be a holocaust of conservatives, which is ridiculous.

Although I think the removal of a prolific character from The Mandalorian for future projects is sad, she had been pretty unapologetically insensitive that I could see a damage to the brand by keeping her on unopposed.


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cyberdad
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14 Feb 2021, 12:08 am

Bradleigh wrote:
She was either lessening what Nazis did, or doing some sort of conspiracy theory that there is going to be a holocaust of conservatives, which is ridiculous.

It's the same nonsense spouted by Trump supporters who try and compare "cancel culture" with nazism. It's way off the mark.


Bradleigh wrote:
Although I think the removal of a prolific character from The Mandalorian for future projects is sad, she had been pretty unapologetically insensitive that I could see a damage to the brand by keeping her on unopposed.


Not sure if you read the article I posted how MMA has been infiltrated by QAnon? they aren't a particularly bright bunch to start off with given the amount of brain injury they get. My guess is that Carano felt emboldened by months of conditioning to make her views public. Disney were already aware of her social media posts but the last one was the final straw and she was let go.



Mr Reynholm
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14 Feb 2021, 9:18 am

Fnord wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
"Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." -- Aristotle
An astute observation of the Republican Party, although falsely attributed to Aristotle.  It does not appear in any books older than a decade or so, and mostly in self-published racist texts whose titles are not fit for posting on this website.

"Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society" is the correct quote, attributed to Dr. James Kennedy (an Evangelical preacher) and then Hutton Gibson (Holocaust Denier and father of Mel Gibson -- himself an anti-Semite and racist).

Once again, racism rears its ugly head in WrongPlanet.


 Link to article on Hutton Gibson 

 Link to article on Mel Gibson 

(NOTE: Edited to add links.)

OMG! You’re saying that Republicans are Tolerant!! ! ! !
Never thought I’d see th Day!! ! ! Hallelujah!! ! ! !
Sorry to burst your bubble, kid, but I am in complete agreement with Jiheisho, not you...
Jiheisho wrote:
... Republicans tolerating the insurrection on our Capitol and showing apathy during the impeachment trail is shameful.
... so get over yourself.

My Bad! Here’s the actual quote by D James Kennedy. It is actually more relevant.

Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society. When you have an immoral society that has blatantly, proudly, violated all of the commandments of God, there is one last virtue they insist upon: tolerance for their immorality.



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14 Feb 2021, 11:21 am

Supporting Ms. Carano's statements by denigrating those who oppose them only serves to reveal that Ms. Carano's supporters are holding her up as a martyr for the cancellation of their own Fascist ideals toward the homeless, immigrants, Jews, minorities, Queerfolk, women, the working-class, and all those who cannot afford housing and medical care.


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14 Feb 2021, 12:05 pm

Brictoria wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
"Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle


That's precisely how Nazism arose in Germany in the 1930s. The population weren't vigilant and were easily primed/groomed to participate in mass murder.


And yet, how were they able to come to the ability to do this? Was it, perhaps, because "dehumanising" a group of people based on a characteristic was allowed\endorsed\encouraged, resulting in attacks by members of the public on that group, gradually increasing until the "state" joined in?

It seems at present, a similar priming\grooming could also be considered to be occurring, with people (on all sides) attacking others for their beliefs (political rather than religious), merging them into a "group" to which they attribute to all members the worst traits they can find in any individual of which they have included in that group, or misrepresenting the groups beliefs\motivations based on faulty (whether by intention, or inadvertently through lack of understanding) assumptions and attributing those false beliefs to all members of the group...

Now that they aren't seen as individual people, but rather representatives of this "evil group", the freedom to attack them is permitted - They aren't "people", they're "MAGA"\"Libt..."\etc. - And how far is it from attacking them through words until they are physically attacked?

It wasn't that long ago that people with differing views were able to sit down together and discuss their differences and either come to an agreement or politely agree to disagree, with neither taking offence that the other didn't agree with them either in part or as a whole...


Absolutely. Demonizing your opponent is a tried and true method. Unfortunately, it has been mostly driven by the right in the US, at least from the Reagan administration that announced that government was the problem through Gingrich, Bush's my way or the highway, the Tea Party, and now Trump. This has culminated with a sitting president declaring the election a fraud and inciting an insurrection against his own government. And he still has huge support in his party. In contrast, the Democrats have not really changed much in this period except for maybe a slight shift to the right. Obama was a consensus leader, which is why when he wanted to address health care in the US, he chose a Republican free-market solution. But, by then, the Republicans were not interested in solutions and simply attacked it. Mitch McConnell famous said after Obama's first election that he would make Obama a one term president.



Last edited by Jiheisho on 14 Feb 2021, 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.