Lia Thomas Record setting trans swimmer controversy

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Nades
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11 Jun 2022, 2:24 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Well, going through puberty isn't safe. It's associated with all sort of negative outcomes - mental health issues, sexually transmitted diseases, violent criminality, homelessness.

Is there any evidence that delaying it is harmful? Because I'd rather act based on evidence, not failures of imagination.


Medical experts "think" (I would use the word think lightly) it's "safe" (I would use word safe lightly) but it's such a new form of medicine that's got all the classic signs of confirmation bias that their idea of safe is likely a load of bollocks.

Nobody who has taken these drugs are old enough to experience any long term effects so what they're predicating this safety on is a bit of a mystery.

Secondly the research around these drugs seem to be exceptionally poor in general with with medical professionals taking no effort whatsoever to even bother finding out if these drugs have the desired positive effects they're prescribing them for. link

If they're doing tiny studies without even using control groups, then I would hazard a guess this recklessness extends to all aspects of puberty blocking drugs including a total lack of understanding of how they work, no interest in finding out their long term health effects, disregard for patients taking them and perhaps some misconduct by doctors prescribing them as a personal experiment.

Going through puberty is also very safe too. It's what humans have always done since forever.



The_Walrus
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11 Jun 2022, 4:18 pm

Nades wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Well, going through puberty isn't safe. It's associated with all sort of negative outcomes - mental health issues, sexually transmitted diseases, violent criminality, homelessness.

Is there any evidence that delaying it is harmful? Because I'd rather act based on evidence, not failures of imagination.


Medical experts "think" (I would use the word think lightly) it's "safe" (I would use word safe lightly) but it's such a new form of medicine that's got all the classic signs of confirmation bias that their idea of safe is likely a load of bollocks.

Nobody who has taken these drugs are old enough to experience any long term effects so what they're predicating this safety on is a bit of a mystery.

Secondly the research around these drugs seem to be exceptionally poor in general with with medical professionals taking no effort whatsoever to even bother finding out if these drugs have the desired positive effects they're prescribing them for. link

If they're doing tiny studies without even using control groups, then I would hazard a guess this recklessness extends to all aspects of puberty blocking drugs including a total lack of understanding of how they work, no interest in finding out their long term health effects, disregard for patients taking them and perhaps some misconduct by doctors prescribing them as a personal experiment.

Going through puberty is also very safe too. It's what humans have always done since forever.

Piffle.

Puberty blockers have been in use since the 80s for treatment of precocious puberty, and the same drugs have been used even longer in older people for treatment of hormone-sensitive cancers. We have a very good idea of their safety profile and mechanisms.

It is obviously morally unacceptable to deny children access to harmless medical treatment because of personal prejudice.



Nades
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11 Jun 2022, 4:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Nades wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Well, going through puberty isn't safe. It's associated with all sort of negative outcomes - mental health issues, sexually transmitted diseases, violent criminality, homelessness.

Is there any evidence that delaying it is harmful? Because I'd rather act based on evidence, not failures of imagination.


Medical experts "think" (I would use the word think lightly) it's "safe" (I would use word safe lightly) but it's such a new form of medicine that's got all the classic signs of confirmation bias that their idea of safe is likely a load of bollocks.

Nobody who has taken these drugs are old enough to experience any long term effects so what they're predicating this safety on is a bit of a mystery.

Secondly the research around these drugs seem to be exceptionally poor in general with with medical professionals taking no effort whatsoever to even bother finding out if these drugs have the desired positive effects they're prescribing them for. link

If they're doing tiny studies without even using control groups, then I would hazard a guess this recklessness extends to all aspects of puberty blocking drugs including a total lack of understanding of how they work, no interest in finding out their long term health effects, disregard for patients taking them and perhaps some misconduct by doctors prescribing them as a personal experiment.

Going through puberty is also very safe too. It's what humans have always done since forever.

Piffle.

Puberty blockers have been in use since the 80s for treatment of precocious puberty, and the same drugs have been used even longer in older people for treatment of hormone-sensitive cancers. We have a very good idea of their safety profile and mechanisms.

It is obviously morally unacceptable to deny children access to harmless medical treatment because of personal prejudice.


You're comparing the long term health implications against cancer sufferers and people with a genuine need to take puberty blockers because of excessive sex hormone production?

For a start having using puberty blockers to delay early onset of puberty would never give a fair comparison. Likewise I'm not entirely convinced doctors would care about the long term health implication of puberty blockers in cancer sufferers, most of who have no doubt already gone through puberty.

Sounds like you're comparing apples to oranges. Even NICE said not enough data exists and in my personal opinion, I think some doctors are opposed to research being done.

What hasn't been done for long enough is blocking sex hormones in perfectly healthy children. Nobody even knows the cutoff for when to stop or if/what the health implications are long term.



Nades
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12 Jun 2022, 1:24 pm

shlaifu wrote:
shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
There are plenty of reasons why someone could have an unfair advantage at athletic competitions

Genetics

Nature versus nurture

Besides someone cisgender women are naturally faster swimmers than some cisgender women

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To make the playing field level, get rid of athletic competitions


Yes. That's sort of the nature of an athletic competition: to determine who's got the best genes, nurture, training, mental state.
If all of that were exactly the same, down to the turbulence of the wateratoms in the pool. - then the competition would end in a tie, to the femtosecond, every time.
But: it's not worth having a competition to determine who's got the most fitting genes and training etc., if one person is 6'1" and has 60% more muscle mass.



This video posted today briefly interviews a female athlete who has lost out in every single running event to trans athletes throughout her entire duration of high school.

She pretty much saying the same thing. The trans athletes didn't just marginally beat her and all the other women, they completely dominated them time and time again. You can hear the genuine frustration and upset in her voice against having to compete against them.



leonedibben
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22 Aug 2022, 8:33 am

Well, I think she(or he) got attacked by reason is an interesting strategy to switch your gender and go to Olympics(I don't want to sound homophobic, but in this case, it's too much for me).



Mona Pereth
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29 Aug 2022, 9:30 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I hope, some day, that men and women are able to compete at the same level, so we don't have these sorts of controversies. I believe this actually might happen some day.

It is true that the gap between men and women has lessened considerably over a generation. Though there is still about a 10 minute or so gap between the men's marathon record and the women's marathon record.

I doubt this will ever happen. Even though the gap has lessened, it's unlikely ever to disappear entirely.

It seems to me that the only reasonable solution to this controversy would be to divide athletes up into more categories than just "men" and "women." The categories would be based not on sex or gender per se but on specific physical characteristics, analogous to the weight classes in boxing. Exactly what the categories are, and how they are defined, would vary depending on the particular sport.

I'm not a sports fan myself, so I don't know whether anyone else has proposed this idea, nor how likely it is to be adopted. But it seems to me that the above solution could not only address the trans-vs-cis-athletes controversy but also create opportunities for many other athletes with a variety of body types.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 29 Aug 2022, 1:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

shortfatbalduglyman
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29 Aug 2022, 9:50 am

shlaifu wrote:
Mikah wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Life is not fair.


Should women be allowed their own sports divisions at all?


I think all forms of competition where the competitors are not absolutely equal is a joke.

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At swimming (and other competitions, athletic, academic or anything else), it seems to me like someone always has an unfair advantage

Some swimmers born with disabilities, larger lung capacity, better fine motor skills.

Not everyone is equal. Naturally


Men and women are not athletically equal


Survival of the fittest

Sometimes competition is necessary for a great reason

But swimming competitions are not necessary for a great reason

Just get rid of competitive sports



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30 Aug 2022, 9:56 pm

Trans people should have their own Olympic teams.


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