Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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Cornflake
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18 Feb 2023, 8:47 am

Pepe wrote:

I AM "The Oracle of Truth" after all, and you don't get to this position through B&W thinking. :wink:

Pepe, will you please stop this idiotic bragging.
Your responses should speak for themselves and not require this self-promotion.

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Josh68
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18 Feb 2023, 8:52 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

I haven’t made any “ridiculous” assumptions. I’ve made very conventional “assumptions,” actually.

Your pro-Russia stance is quite evident. So what? My pro-Ukrainian stance is also evident. I don’t dispute that you don’t care for the “accumulation of corpses” and are not for all the carnage. That you want peace. Most clear-thinking people want peace.

Condescension is frequently a manifestation of an attempt to gain the rhetorical advantage. I don’t respond to it. I’m not deterred by it. I’ve had enough of it in the course of my life.

Oh, because I don't repeat all the MSM talking points surrounding the war I must be pro-Russia. Jesus!

If you detected condescension in my comments, I think you pretty much solicited it with one comment. I don't think I was being condescending at all, to be honest. I was holding back as much I could to be nice.

Have a nice day!

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kraftiekortie
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18 Feb 2023, 10:18 am

You’re holding back WHAT?

I never personally attacked attacked you

Go ahead, don’t “hold back,” bro.

magz
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18 Feb 2023, 10:38 am

My Polish news outlet claims that after his visit in Moscow on Friday, Lukashenko disappeared and no one knows where he is...
That might be very ominous. Belarus wasn't a democracy and Lukashenko wasn't very civilized but for the last year, he's been doing quite a lot not to allow Belarussian army to join the war. If something bad happens to him now, Belarus may become directly commanded from Moscow. Even annexed.

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Josh68
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18 Feb 2023, 10:45 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

You’re holding back WHAT?

I never personally attacked attacked you

Go ahead, don’t “hold back,” bro.

I don't think you even realize how loaded and combative your comment was. We can agree to disagree, but I certainly don't support Russia simply simply because I don't stick to the Western media narrative.

I am not pro any country, really. I'm pro-people. We are all under the boot and being propagandized by corrupt systems that don't give two s**ts how many people die in these wars.

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kraftiekortie
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18 Feb 2023, 11:03 am

All right. I get what you’re saying.

Josh68
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18 Feb 2023, 11:19 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

All right. I get what you’re saying.

It's all good. Peace!

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goldfish21
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18 Feb 2023, 12:27 pm

magz wrote:

Uh-oh.

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for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.

funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 12:32 pm

Pepe wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

I haven’t made any “ridiculous” assumptions. I’ve made very conventional “assumptions,” actually.

Your pro-Russia stance is quite evident. So what? My pro-Ukrainian advantage is also evident. I don’t dispute that you don’t care for the “accumulation of corpses” and are not for all the carnage. That you want peace. Most clear-thinking people want peace.

Condescension is frequently a manifestation of an attempt to gain the rhetorical advantage. I don’t respond to it. I’m not deterred by it. I’ve had enough of it in the course of my life.

It's analogous to what gets called Enlightened Centrism. One pretends to be neutral while also only offering significant criticisms towards one side. An occasional token criticism of their pet side might be made occasionally, but at the end of the day it's just trying to pass one's biases off as neutrality.

You rang?

You do realise I am supporting the Democrats in the Ukraine situation and am actively against the Republicans on this issue, right?
I do do that sometimes. :wink:

I thought you would be pleased.

This subject is personal, to me, btw.

BTW, Did you come into this thread just to have a go at me? :mrgreen:

Read it again with the understanding I'm talking about Josh68, not you.

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funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 12:33 pm

magz wrote:

Won't that mean Putin's got his pecker in two beehives?

The_Walrus
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18 Feb 2023, 1:03 pm

Josh68 wrote:

magz wrote:

I see no evidence for this at all.

That's actually rather strange opinion.

I think the fact that Biden has served the Military Industrial Complex quite well during his 50-year political career, and voted in favor of just about every U.S. war is is pretty evidence.

This is false. Biden's record can't really be boiled down to that sort of one-liner. He has unfortunately opposed a lot of good military actions in his time. For example, he opposed the Gulf War (as a Senator) and the no-fly zone over Libya (as Vice President), as well as the attack that killed Osama bin Laden (as VP). He's also been consistently dovish on Afghanistan, and along with Trump is one of the main people responsible for the return of the Taliban.

To be fair to Biden, he has supported good interventions (like the NATO interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo) and opposed some bad ones (supporting Saudi Arabia in Yemen). So it's not all disasters. But saying he "supports every war" is just wrong - Biden is more of a dove than a hawk.

magz
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18 Feb 2023, 1:23 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

magz wrote:

Won't that mean Putin's got his pecker in two beehives?

Belarussians are less warlike than Ukrainians - and certainly way worse organized, without a whole independent country other than Lukashenko's regime. Their democratic opposition is fragmented and mostly out of the country (or in jail).
If poo-tin manages to lay hand on Lukashenko's regime structures, it might go quite smoothly

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Josh68
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18 Feb 2023, 1:27 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Josh68 wrote:

magz wrote:

I see no evidence for this at all.

That's actually rather strange opinion.

I think the fact that Biden has served the Military Industrial Complex quite well during his 50-year political career, and voted in favor of just about every U.S. war is is pretty evidence.

Biden walked back his opposition to the first Gulf War, even criticizing Bush Sr for not going far enough and deposing Saddam Hussain. Since then he's been an ardent supporter of regime change U.S. foreign policy. To call him "more of a dove than a hawk" just isn't rooted in reality.

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funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 1:28 pm

magz wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

magz wrote:

Won't that mean Putin's got his pecker in two beehives?

Belarussians are less warlike than Ukrainians - and certainly way worse organized, without a whole independent country other than Lukashenko's regime. So if poo-tin manages to lay hand on Lukashenko's regime structures, it might go quite smoothly

That's certainly a possibility, but I anticipate the only reason Belarus isn't in a civil war right now is that Lukashenko has managed to not commit any forces against Ukraine.

I don't doubt there's many factors making Belarus less willing and less prepared to fight, only that their state is so fragile that a coup, annexation or similar might result in no other option.

magz
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18 Feb 2023, 1:37 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Who knows?
From what I know, Belarussian society is dead set on a concept of never dying in other people's wars again. They are very, very badly traumatized by WWII. I heard, more than we are. That's a bar set very high.
That probably explains Lukashenko's politics. He could let poo-tin use his territory and material resources but Belarussian army boots on the ground is an extremely strong red line even for him. Because that could possibly mean even a putsch.

Maybe Lukashenko comes back... peacefully and without problems or with a broken backbone. A big question is, what Belarussian army officers do if they are forced to go to war. A big, open question.

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funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 1:59 pm

magz wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

That might be a big factor in keeping Russia from taking actions against Belarus. Right now it isn't Belarus' war and as long as Lukashenko can keep it that way everything remains stable.

If that balance changes and involvement in war becomes inevitable, I feel like we'll see Belarussians fight their own war rather than Russia's.

I don't believe Russia will be able to manage two occupations at once, even if one is more secure than the other. I don't believe Russia can come up with adequate resources to occupy even a moderately resistant Belarus while continuing to fight in Ukraine. They focus on one, they lose in the other. If Belarus is pulled in the quagmire grows and Russia just ends up deeper within it.

I don't believe Russia can force Belarus into the war without being prepared to occupy Belarus, and what you've said about Belarussians being dead set against dying in other people's wars really reinforces that belief. Since that's a priority it seems likely that it will serve as a tipping point for a lot of people.

Last edited by funeralxempire on 18 Feb 2023, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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