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Graelwyn
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10 Aug 2007, 3:46 pm

I have thought over this for a long time and come to conclude that in reality, love, in any true sense of the word, simply does not exist for the most part, unless someone is able to care for and love another unconditionally...without expecting anything in return. This is something I am able to do for a few people, but for the most part, not.

I believe that in most cases, love is at it's most basic level, need. Need to be close, need for warmth, comfort, sex, companionship... and once those needs are not being met, the 'love' simply fades out, or even turns to dislike/hate.
I have discussed this with a few people who agree that love is based on need.
Very rarely is it self sacrificing and selfless.
Most people, when they are seeking a partner, are looking for someone who will provide best for them, whether in material, emotional or physical terms. It isn't about what they can give to another, it is what another can give to them.

Look at the way people drift in and out of relationships where they have claimed to love the other person, and look at the vicious divorce suits people bring about, and tell me that love isn't based on need and human ego.



Malachi_Rothschild
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10 Aug 2007, 3:56 pm

I think you're right. I'd go further and say that even altruism is to satisfy some type of need.



Graelwyn
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10 Aug 2007, 4:30 pm

Malachi_Rothschild wrote:
I think you're right. I'd go further and say that even altruism is to satisfy some type of need.


Yes, even so called altruism satisfies a need to be needed...and also, it feed the ego and makes the person doing the 'altruistic' deed feel better about themselves. I don't really believe altruism exists other than in extreme circumstances such as someone drowning and another acting on instinct to save them, but even then, is that altruism or simply instinct?



Malachi_Rothschild
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10 Aug 2007, 4:45 pm

I don't think that's altruism either, just instinct. And to me even instinct is fulfilling a type of need. If we have an instinctual response to something and we resist it, it'll often just keep pushing us. Like fight or flight response.



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10 Aug 2007, 10:18 pm

Depends on what you define as love?

Psycologically speaking it is "interdependance". That state where your happiness depends on the happiness of another person. But what would bring such a state around?

The recognition of the same values in another person perhaps? Fundamentally opposites do not attract. Superficially they may seem to. But fundamentally no.

To say "I love you", you must first be able to say "I."



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10 Aug 2007, 10:29 pm

Love is a chemically induced drive that elicits mating. It's to continue the human race, Grae - the human purpose. That's why it needs to be so strong and overpowering; to override logic, impair reason and cloud judgement. Humans are naturally selfish creatures - it's a survival thing - and love turns you into a selfless, compliant being who longs to express this 'connection' via sex. You wonder why divorse rates are so high - you have some kids, mission complete, and the neurotransmitters fade away and leave you with a mortgage, some kids and an obligation.


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Ragtime
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10 Aug 2007, 10:38 pm

Real, unconditional love is so exceedingly rare, that realistically you can't expect to find it. I've given up, and I'm much happier now. Sure, I get the blues now and then, but the same, and worse, can be said of being in a relationship. Personally, I don't like give someone else supreme power over my happiness.

But really, when searching for a "workable spouse", someone who loves conditionally, but still pretty consistently, you can succeed. That's not enough for me, so I take a powder on the whole institution. Plus, I really believe that I am not meant for a relationship. There's just too much evidence to ignore, not to mention the fact that I don't even want one!



Sedaka
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10 Aug 2007, 11:24 pm

people have a misconseption that love has to last forever... and when it doesn't and they're disapointed... they find some reseaon to explain why it wasn't really love... just so they have the motivation to try again. while im not saying that those circumstances you cited weren't actually love for lots of people... im sure that it was for lots of people... it's not fair for you to generalize.

i have loved and lost and loved lost and i will probably continue to doso...

yes... the longer you do love someone... the more it changes... but the second you start to second guess anything you love... is the second that it no longer is love.... it's the reason that if you see an old love sometime long down the road... you may get that whelling to not falter this time and to give it your all... cause you know what not to take for granted.


i dont believe in one true love... and i would say i have truly loved those that i have... can you really go around 1/2 loving people?

it's something you have to learn to do... to sustain... much like exercise... the more you do, the longer you can go... but for all your training... were you not excercising the entire time?

i don't think so. (hoping i got the double neg. right.... it's late and im doin stats :( )

imo


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Graelwyn
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11 Aug 2007, 6:32 am

Then it is basically as weak and transient as the other emotions, ie, anger, jealousy etc etc ?
I suppose, with so much emphasis always placed on love, and with my nature, I had always hoped when young that the idea of eternal love wasn't a fallacy... I just find it hard to believe in the validity of something that doesn't endure and remain the same. How can one say what they felt for someone was love if a few years down the line, they hate the guts of the person they loved and wouldn't care less what happened to them? That is when I start to question if it is just a word we use to make it sound more palatable to us. After all, when asked to define 'Love', many people cannot define it or say what exactly it is to them... sure, you can say it is a series of electromagnetic reactions in the brain, but what makes it so different from any other emotion?



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11 Aug 2007, 6:49 am

Tell me if this is love or not: There's this guy I really like. I remember the day I first met him, about 3 years ago, very clearly. I was struck by him, I thought he was different, but I didn't realize I liked him until some of my colleagues began to taunt me about it. I've seen him from time to time since, and worked with him on occasion. We're both shy, so we don't say much, but I always look into his eyes. I feel no need to sleep with him, since I have almost no sex drive. I don't think he would be able to provide for me, as he doesn't work full time or seem particulaly interested in his job. In fact, I don't see anything that he could give me, but I still like him despite this. When I see him I melt. Since he hasn't asked me out after all this time, and I can't take that kind of initiative, I can safely assume that we have zero chance of ever getting together. Yet my feelings haven't changed, and I don't think they ever will. If he got married to another girl, I would still wish him all the happiness in the world. If that isn't love, I'm not sure what is.



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12 Aug 2007, 3:29 pm

Graelwyn wrote:
Then it is basically as weak and transient as the other emotions, ie, anger, jealousy etc etc ?
I suppose, with so much emphasis always placed on love, and with my nature, I had always hoped when young that the idea of eternal love wasn't a fallacy... I just find it hard to believe in the validity of something that doesn't endure and remain the same. How can one say what they felt for someone was love if a few years down the line, they hate the guts of the person they loved and wouldn't care less what happened to them? That is when I start to question if it is just a word we use to make it sound more palatable to us. After all, when asked to define 'Love', many people cannot define it or say what exactly it is to them... sure, you can say it is a series of electromagnetic reactions in the brain, but what makes it so different from any other emotion?


i dont hate any of the people i loved.

and it can be as transient or sustained as other emotions, such as hate. i think the symptoms you have issues with are coping skills to doubt.. doubt is the root of all evil in many aspects of life.


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Ragtime
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12 Aug 2007, 4:25 pm

Sedaka wrote:
Graelwyn wrote:
Then it is basically as weak and transient as the other emotions, ie, anger, jealousy etc etc ?
I suppose, with so much emphasis always placed on love, and with my nature, I had always hoped when young that the idea of eternal love wasn't a fallacy... I just find it hard to believe in the validity of something that doesn't endure and remain the same. How can one say what they felt for someone was love if a few years down the line, they hate the guts of the person they loved and wouldn't care less what happened to them? That is when I start to question if it is just a word we use to make it sound more palatable to us. After all, when asked to define 'Love', many people cannot define it or say what exactly it is to them... sure, you can say it is a series of electromagnetic reactions in the brain, but what makes it so different from any other emotion?


i dont hate any of the people i loved.

and it can be as transient or sustained as other emotions, such as hate. i think the symptoms you have issues with are coping skills to doubt.. doubt is the root of all evil in many aspects of life.


I agree. I told my wife that I never stopped loving my former girlfriends, because then it wouldn't have been love.


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richardbenson
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12 Aug 2007, 6:10 pm

when bob marley comes back to earths thats when love will be known :wink:


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12 Aug 2007, 6:16 pm

Graelwyn wrote:
Malachi_Rothschild wrote:
I think you're right. I'd go further and say that even altruism is to satisfy some type of need.


Yes, even so called altruism satisfies a need to be needed...and also, it feed the ego and makes the person doing the 'altruistic' deed feel better about themselves. I don't really believe altruism exists other than in extreme circumstances such as someone drowning and another acting on instinct to save them, but even then, is that altruism or simply instinct?


Still, does that really deflate the value of altruism in that sense? Someone could just as easily feel good about belittling the next person for their amusement - the choice to actually choose the other route to build your own self esteem and sense of self can't be overlooked.

Also, with love, I think its largely a need to share experience on a deeper level, really feel like someone understands you, and ultimately at its best that person cares about you enough to where they'd just about take a bullet for you (and absolutely, you the same for them). Platonic love, romantic love, I think they're very similar at the root but just go to different ends and different situations/circumstance.



Sedaka
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12 Aug 2007, 6:42 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
Graelwyn wrote:
Then it is basically as weak and transient as the other emotions, ie, anger, jealousy etc etc ?
I suppose, with so much emphasis always placed on love, and with my nature, I had always hoped when young that the idea of eternal love wasn't a fallacy... I just find it hard to believe in the validity of something that doesn't endure and remain the same. How can one say what they felt for someone was love if a few years down the line, they hate the guts of the person they loved and wouldn't care less what happened to them? That is when I start to question if it is just a word we use to make it sound more palatable to us. After all, when asked to define 'Love', many people cannot define it or say what exactly it is to them... sure, you can say it is a series of electromagnetic reactions in the brain, but what makes it so different from any other emotion?


i dont hate any of the people i loved.

and it can be as transient or sustained as other emotions, such as hate. i think the symptoms you have issues with are coping skills to doubt.. doubt is the root of all evil in many aspects of life.


I agree. I told my wife that I never stopped loving my former girlfriends, because then it wouldn't have been love.


QFT... just as you still love her for as much as you can love her.

it's hard cause i dont really think of love as being quantitative so much as qualitative... and that is subjective... so it just depends what you (both) want, really


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