War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong

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Pepe
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20 May 2022, 2:07 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

This sort of thing is inevitable when you have a dictator. Or, alas, even if you have an enlightened leader.

I'm glad Germany decided to fight on two fronts; this was one of the main reasons why Germany didn't ultimately prevail.

Agreed. A two-front war was stupid, but there were other reasons why Hitler lost the war.
One being, Japan made a pact with the Soviets not to attack each other. This allowed stalin to transfer some of his best military units westwards.

Another was the Ammurians supporting stalin with supplies/lend-lease, and then creating a second invasion force in the west which forced Hitler to transfer elite units to the west since many of the troops garrisoned on the Atlantic wall were medically unfit.

If it wasn't for the Amuurian involvement, Hitler could have won the war which would have been a world disaster.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even now, in Ukraine, the Russians acknowledged that fighting on more than one front was a recipe for disaster. This is why even non-Ukrainian people on YouTube could now go into Central Kyiv, and survey the damage from missiles dropped the day before.

What you have said doesn't describe a "two-front" war. It was the extended front that was the problem, apart from poor intelligence.
Had Poland also attacked Ukraine, you would then have a two-front war.

Pepe
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20 May 2022, 2:16 am

cyberdad wrote:

I should point out that the OP is incorrect to claim that Ukraine is wrong for defending themselves.

But are the current leadership in Ukraine and members of the Ukrainian forces 100% blameless for this conflict? That remains to be scrutinised and debated by historians.

How many Russians were raped, tortured and murdered?
You might like to consider where the true evil is.

You also seem to lack greater enlightenment about why pootin invaded.
As happened in his other invasions, his incursion and success made him very popular at home.
He was hoping for the same to happen in Ukraine.

"Russian warship, go f**k yourself."

BTW, why are you always so supportive of Russia and the former Soviet Union?
"Curious." :chin:

Last edited by Pepe on 20 May 2022, 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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20 May 2022, 2:19 am

magz wrote:

Zelensky had been a president for almost 2 years before the invasion. No genocide was carried out. The state was struggling with corruption, otherwise developing in civil manner - even the Donbas conflict was kept in ways maximally reducing colateral damage (UN report).
So we do know what Zelensky's rule looks like without the invasion. Just a regular country that inherited two serious problems from its past.

That is simply Ukrainian propaganda. <facetiousness> :mrgreen:

magz
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20 May 2022, 2:27 am

Pepe wrote:

You also seem to lack greater enlightenment about why pootin invaded.
As happened in his other invasions, his incursion and success made him very populate at home.
He was hoping for the same to happen in Ukraine.

Putin does not understand Ukraine.
He believed Russian-speaking Ukrainians are Russians and think like Russians about politics - Tsar nash batyushka! We may live in crap and eat our shoes but our Empire is strong! Urrra! Of course not all Russians think that way but the Russian Empire is built on those who do and, ahem, discourages those who don't.

But language and political culture are two separate elements, even in East Europe where language is the traditional determinant of ethnicity. Ukraine has long traditions of freedom-loving and linguistic shifts did not change it.

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Pepe
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20 May 2022, 2:37 am

magz wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Enlightening.

cyberdad
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20 May 2022, 3:11 am

Pepe wrote:

BTW, why are you always so supportive of Russia and the former Soviet Union?
"Curious." :chin:

Am I? I have always tried to qualify that I am against Putin's invasion and the killing of innocent Ukrainians.

As for the Soviet Union, Not a big fan of Soviet dictators :lol:

Pepe
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20 May 2022, 3:14 am

cyberdad wrote:

Pepe wrote:

BTW, why are you always so supportive of Russia and the former Soviet Union?
"Curious." :chin:

Am I? I have always tried to qualify that I am against Putin's invasion and the killing of innocent Ukrainians.

As for the Soviet Union, Not a big fan of Soviet dictators :lol:

Your posting history says otherwise.

cyberdad
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20 May 2022, 3:16 am

magz wrote:

We shall see how things transpire in Ukraine. At some point Putin will pull out but will maintain sizeable troop presence in the occupied areas of the Ukraine.

The war is beginning to resemble the Balkans conflict of the 1990s, Yugoslavia was the "Russia" accused of war crimes (not surprisingly the orthodox Serbians were pro-Russian). The Croatian state seemed to also be involved in war crimes against Muslims and Serbs but the difference is the catholic Croats (who also curiously included Nazi elements) were pro-west so not given the same scrutiny as the Serbs.

Last edited by cyberdad on 20 May 2022, 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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20 May 2022, 3:16 am

Pepe wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Pepe wrote:

BTW, why are you always so supportive of Russia and the former Soviet Union?
"Curious." :chin:

Am I? I have always tried to qualify that I am against Putin's invasion and the killing of innocent Ukrainians.

As for the Soviet Union, Not a big fan of Soviet dictators :lol:

Your posting history says otherwise.

Where have I said I liked Stalin or Lenin?

magz
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20 May 2022, 3:26 am

cyberdad wrote:

We shall see how things transpire in Ukraine. At some point Putin will pull out but will maintain sizeable troop presence in the occupied areas of the Ukraine.

That's not how "pulling out" works. "Pull out" means "stop occupying".
And, so far, it's Russian-occupied territories facing worst humanitarian crises.

cyberdad wrote:

The war is beginning to resemble the Balkans conflict of the 1990s, Yugoslavia was the "Russia" accused of war crimes (not surprisingly the orthodox Serbians were pro-Russian). The Croatian state seemed to also be involved in war crimes against Muslims and Serbs but the difference is the catholic Croats (who also curiously included Nazi elements) were pro-west.

It was never similar to Balkans. Balkans are a mosaic of ethnicities fighting each other, divided mostly by religioin, then by language, and hostile towards each other.
Ukraine is ethnically, linguistically and religiously diverse in a non-hostile way. It was invaded because of their political choices to leave Moscow sphere of influence and to become West-aligned. Such decision made by "the cradle of Russia" was unbearable to Kremlin.
East Orthodox Russian speakers are around half of Ukrainian nation and, despite being expected to welcome Russian soldiers with bread and flowers, they didn't - they "welcame" them with Molotov cocktails.
It's not about ethnicity at all. It's about a way of life.

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Pepe
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20 May 2022, 3:37 am

magz wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

We shall see how things transpire in Ukraine. At some point Putin will pull out but will maintain sizeable troop presence in the occupied areas of the Ukraine.

That's not how "pulling out" works. "Pull out" means "stop occupying".
And, so far, it's Russian-occupied territories facing worst humanitarian crises.

This is what I find astounding. The areas that pootin wants to annex in the east have been totally decimated.
Perhaps he wants a no man's buffer zone?

cyberdad
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20 May 2022, 3:38 am

It's interesting that the US is arming Croatia while Russia is arming Serbia
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s- ... -to-serbia

It seems lines are being drawn on old lines from the Yugoslav war, Maybe you might have been too quick to dismiss my point.

magz
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20 May 2022, 3:45 am

I'm not dismissing this point, I'm claimimng it's irrelevant here. Russian-Ukrainian conflict lines go along neither linguistic nor religious divisions.
Balkans are a separate problem.

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magz
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20 May 2022, 3:54 am

Pepe wrote:

magz wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

We shall see how things transpire in Ukraine. At some point Putin will pull out but will maintain sizeable troop presence in the occupied areas of the Ukraine.

That's not how "pulling out" works. "Pull out" means "stop occupying".
And, so far, it's Russian-occupied territories facing worst humanitarian crises.

This is what I find astounding. The areas that pootin wants to annex in the east have been totally decimated.
Perhaps he wants a no man's buffer zone?

You attribute too much conventional logic to this madness.
Russian actions can be best explained with Great Russia narratives on strategic level, together with corruption/scapegoating logic on tactical and operational level.
It's not to gain material wealth. It's to punish a nation for trying to escape "Great Russia" world.
Because "Great Russia" is a lie and Kremlin mustn't let this lie be exposed to the hole world.

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SpiralingCrow
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20 May 2022, 6:17 am

Pepe wrote:

magz wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

We shall see how things transpire in Ukraine. At some point Putin will pull out but will maintain sizeable troop presence in the occupied areas of the Ukraine.

That's not how "pulling out" works. "Pull out" means "stop occupying".
And, so far, it's Russian-occupied territories facing worst humanitarian crises.

This is what I find astounding. The areas that pootin wants to annex in the east have been totally decimated.
Perhaps he wants a no man's buffer zone?

You must separate what Putin says from what he does. What he does is far more telling. Was he really trying to "free Donbas from Ukrainian genocide? Or was was he trying to take over Ukraine as a whole in order put in his own puppet goverment? If he was really just trying to liberate Dobas why march to Kiev and bomb the entire country back to the stone age? Putin never cared about ethnic Russians in Ukraine. They are suffering the same fate and atrocities as non ethnic Russians. That is quite clear now. He did not expect such resistance though which is why he had to give up on the entire country and started focusing elsewhere. He mostly likely wants to grab the entire coast line and a land bridge to it. It's no secret he wanted to resurrect the former USSR. Why else would he want to take NATO back to 1997? Luckily that won't happen.

QFT
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20 May 2022, 9:55 am

cyberdad wrote:

I should point out that the OP is incorrect to claim that Ukraine is wrong for defending themselves.

I never said Ukraine is wrong for defending themselves. I said West is wrong for interfering. In fact the point of OP was to make an analogy between Putin interfering in internal Ukraine affairs and West interfering in something thats between Russia and Ukraine -- hence the title.

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