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Comparing Russia vs Ukraine to other countries

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QFT
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16 Jun 2022, 3:28 pm

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
Daniel chapter 7
I read it and I didn't find it there.


https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html



kraftiekortie
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16 Jun 2022, 3:36 pm

I would say that most Christians don't take Revelations literally.

They realize it's symbolic.

Just like most Christians understand that the Bible was written between about 700 BC and about 100 years after Christ's birth. What applied then (e.g., laws) doesn't apply in the 21st century.



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16 Jun 2022, 3:51 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Just like most Christians understand that the Bible was written between about 700 BC and about 100 years after Christ's birth. What applied then (e.g., laws) doesn't apply in the 21st century.


But they interpret Revelation as a prophecy, which means it applies to the future.

I realize that there is also an opinion that Revelation applies to the time of distraction of a temple, which is a preterist view. But this has two problems:

a) Revelation was likely written in 90 AD while temple was destroyed in 70 AD. So since it was pointing to the future it rules out the 70 AD events, unless it was wrongly dated

b) Right after the events of Revelation, the Millenium should start. Preterists believe the Millenium is represented by the church age. But that is not true because by the time of the Millenium sin should be destroyed, which hasn't happened in the church age yet.

So the above arguments imply that preterists are wrong and millenium is in the future. This, in term, implies that antichrist is in the future too since antichrist should come right before millenium. Of course the next question is how far in the future. And there we again have people split between thinking in distant future versus thinking that its around the corner (due to unprecedented events that we see nowdays such as globalisation and so forth).



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16 Jun 2022, 3:59 pm

QFT wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Even most Christians seem to acknowledge that Revelations is at best deeply weird, and most likely nothing more than the ravings of a lunatic.


Thats not true. Most Christians won't call any book of the Bible that way.

Now, yes, there are Christians that say that Revelation is symbolic and hard to interpret. And there are also preterists who say that it refers to 1-st century and not now. But thats different. I don't think any Christian would refer to Apostle John as a lunatic.


I agree with you about THAT. Few Christians would dismiss any book in the Bible that way.

But few Christians lie awake every night worried about Revelations coming true in their lifetimes. And either consider the book an allegory too impenetrable for mere mortals to interpret, or go along with secular scholars who believe that the book applied to the time it was written in the First Centurey, and not to our time. And the minority of Christians who DO take it with immediate urgent seriousness (of which you seem to be one), and do assume that it applies to their OWN generation, have been around screaming about the end times in EVERY generation for the last 2000 years.



The_Walrus
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16 Jun 2022, 4:02 pm

QFT wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Even most Christians seem to acknowledge that Revelations is at best deeply weird, and most likely nothing more than the ravings of a lunatic.


Thats not true. Most Christians won't call any book of the Bible that way.

Now, yes, there are Christians that say that Revelation is symbolic and hard to interpret. And there are also preterists who say that it refers to 1-st century and not now. But thats different. I don't think any Christian would refer to Apostle John as a lunatic.

Revelations wasn't written by John the brother of James, just some guy called John. It was written after John the Beloved died in 100 CE.

I think most Christians who are familiar with the Bible, which is admittedly a small minority, would acknowledge that there is a lot of weirdness there - the Sapientials in particular are completely bizarre if you're used to the more narrative works like Genesis, Exodus, and the Gospels (realistically the only six books the average Christian is familiar with).



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16 Jun 2022, 4:05 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Revelations wasn't written by John the brother of James, just some guy called John. It was written after John the Beloved died in 100 CE.


Revelations was written in 90 AD which means that if John died in 100 AD, he was still alive. Also the John that wrote Revelation mentioned that he was in the exile in the island as he wrote, which identifies him with John the Beloved.

The_Walrus wrote:
the Sapientials in particular


I never heard of Sapientials. Who are they?



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16 Jun 2022, 10:38 pm

The question is, how did Christianity begin to guide international relations? :scratch:


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magz
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17 Jun 2022, 1:31 am

QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
Daniel chapter 7
I read it and I didn't find it there.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html
According to this interpretation, four beasts symbolize four historical empires: Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greece and Rome. The last one would bring great opression to the "holy people". Historically correct.
No mention of peace bringing death at all.


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magz
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17 Jun 2022, 1:42 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Even most Christians seem to acknowledge that Revelations is at best deeply weird, and most likely nothing more than the ravings of a lunatic.
From Christian (Catholic, that's what I'm familiar with) point of view: Revelation is not lunacy, it's lots of symbols and allegories. They were clear to the contemporary readers but they almost completely lost their meaning without their original cultural context.

Revelation is open to infinite possible interpretations, so putting it above the books of Bible with more clear messages could be used to "proving" basically anything - that's a danger.


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17 Jun 2022, 3:16 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
The question is, how did Christianity begin to guide international relations? :scratch:


By taking over lots of land and extinguishing the beliefs those lands previously had by violence.

But if you're just talking about this thread then it just got off the rail, I think?



magz
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17 Jun 2022, 3:39 am

Fireblossom wrote:
But if you're just talking about this thread then it just got off the rail, I think?
You know, crazy theological debates are fun XD


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17 Jun 2022, 8:06 am

magz wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
But if you're just talking about this thread then it just got off the rail, I think?
You know, crazy theological debates are fun XD
You know the maxim that warns against wrestling with pigs, right?



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17 Jun 2022, 9:16 am

I can go back on topic.
I see a good historical analogy for current invasion, something I'm very familiar with - but the OP wouldn't like it.


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QFT
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17 Jun 2022, 11:02 am

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
Daniel chapter 7
I read it and I didn't find it there.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html
According to this interpretation, four beasts symbolize four historical empires: Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greece and Rome. The last one would bring great opression to the "holy people". Historically correct.


There is supposed to be the fifth one, after that, the one referred to as "little horn". And that is the coming of antichrist.

The point I was trying to make is that beasts represent kingdoms. You agreed with that: you just listed four such kingdoms. Therefore, when "the whole world will worship the beast" that symbolizes a kingdom that would preside over the whole world. None of the above four empires did, but the fifth one will -- thanks to globalization. That's why globalization is related to all this.

Also Revelation 17:13 talks about kings having "one mind" and "giving authority to the beast". That again sounds like globalization.

magz wrote:
No mention of peace bringing death at all.


As far as "by peace he will destroy many" that is in Daniel 8:25



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17 Jun 2022, 11:30 am

Daniel 8,23-25 wrote:
23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

To me, any deceitful tyrant fits the description.

BTW, our times does have a tyrant causing astounding devastation destroying many... :chin: Luckily, he's not as successful as described.


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17 Jun 2022, 11:51 am

magz wrote:
Daniel 8,23-25 wrote:
23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV


I think it depends on what version of the Bible you are using. On this link https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-25.htm you can see many different versions side by side. The one that says "by peace he shall destroy many" is King James version.