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QFT
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16 Jun 2022, 2:24 pm

First of all, let me clarify that the intention of this post has nothing to do with trying to say which opinion is right and which is wrong. Instead, the point is to make sure all opinions are on the table. Opinions 1-10 are well known and often-cited, Opinions 11,12 were still presented by others but are a lot more obscure; Opinions 13,14 are completely invented by me So the purpose of this thread is to put Opinions 13, 14 on a table. No I am not saying I agree with them. Actually my own opinion would be more along the lines of 1. The reason I present 13 and 14 is because I enjoy original thought. Since nobody besides me ever thought of 13 and 14, I think it would be interesting to present them, to show how creative I can be.

In any case, here comes the list:

1) Whoever killed Jesus, aren't alive today. Children shouldn't be responsible for parents sins

2) It was only a small handful of people that were present on Jesus' trial, so nobody else can be responsible

3) Since Ponteus Pilate washed his hands while the Jews kept insisting on killing Jesus, Jews are responsible. And then of course this argument has been used throughout centuries to persecute Jews

4) Since Ponteus Pilate was the only one who had the authority to kill Jesus, Romans are responsible. But, interestingly enough, this argument has never been used to persecute Italians. Instead, it was only used to vindicate Jews

5) Since it was ultimately God's design for Jesus to die, God was responsible

6) Since Jesus said he was the only one who had an authority to lay down his life, Jesus was responsible

7) Jesus was a Jew, so you can't say that Jews killed Jesus

8 ) Jesus was a Jew and Jews killed Jesus, so that was just a little internal affair among the Jews

9) Jesus needed to die in order to have final sin sacrifice, so whoever killed Jesus should be thanked rather than blamed

10) They think Bible is either distorted or not true. And so they blame those passages on bad motives of whoever decided to distort facts

11) Christian Identity people believe that the true descendents of Israel are White people while people regarded as Jews today aren't actually Israelites at all; instead they are either Khazars or descendants of Cain or descendants of Ishmal or of Essau, and the list goes on. So, in today's language, Jesus was not a Jew (yes he was Israelites, but we aren't calling Israelites as Jews today). And yes Jews killed him (that is, descendants of Cain/Ishmael/Essau killed him -- and since we call them Jews -- then sure, Jews killed him).

12) The person who originally proposed that Jews descended from Khazars was actually a Hungarian Jew and he did that in order to vindicate Jews: since Khazars converted to Judaism around 1000 AD, this logically implies that their descendants couldn't have possibly killed Jesus. But then Christian Identity people picked up his argument and claimed that yes they did. But in order for them to claim this, they had to say Jews descended from Cain/Ishmael/Essau as opposed to Khazars. The idea that Jews descended from Khazars would invalidate the claim that they killed Jesus, but nobody besides that hungarian Jew seems to notice it. People seem to say Jews descended from Khazars in the context of claiming they aren't God's chosen, and then they say Jews descended from Cain/Ishmael/Essau in the context of saying they killed Jesus. Yet they don't seem to notice that Khazar descend would disprove killing Jesus claim. They only seem to cite Khazar descend to disprove God's chosenness, and then forget that it disproves killing Jesus too.

Now, as I mentioned earlier, I am not trying to agree or disagree with anything. I am only trying to make sure that all the opinions are on the table. So opinions listed in 1-11 has been voiced multiple times by multiple people. But, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with them, there are a couple of opinions that haven't made into that list. Since I am all about original thought, let me describe those opinions. Hopefully I am right that nobody ever thought of until I just did. I like being creative. So here it goes:

13) When people say "4", they tend to assume that Ponteus Pilate represented non-Jews as a whole. I beg to differ: I would say Ponteus Pilat represented Italians, specifically. This being the case, accusing Ponteus Pilate won't vindicate Jews. Instead, it would simply add one more ethnic group, Italians, to the hated list. If you look at KKK for example, you don't hear them say "hey, its not Jews thats a problem, its blacks" or "hey its not blacks thats the problem, its Jews". Instead, they are saying "Jews and blacks are a problem", lumping them together. Similarly, in regards to killing of Jesus one could also say "its Jews and Italians thats the problem", again lumping them together. And in this case the question "was it Jews or was it Romans" becomes less relevant. The answer is "its both; so go and hate Jews and Italians together". The reason nobody says it is because, again, they tend to forget that Pontius Pilate was an Italian. They assume he represented non-Jews as a whole. So "go and hate Jews and non-Jews together" is a void statement, isn't it. But since Pontius Pilate represents Italians, then "go and hate Jews and Italians together" is actually a meaningful statement. But since people forget about Italians and are only focused on Jews and non-Jews, thats why it never occurred to them.

14) Others already said "Jesus was a Jew" and "Jesus laid down his own life". Neither of those two statements are mine. But my original contribution would be to combine these two statements in a way that nobody ever done before. If "Jesus laid down his own life", then "Jesus killed himself". The statement "Jesus killed himself" can be rephrased as "Jesus killed Jesus". Now, as others said, "Jesus was a Jew". Now if "Jesus was a Jew" and "Jesus killed Jesus" then "Jesus was one of the Jews who killed Jesus". Yet others are saying "Jews can't kill Jesus because Jesus was a Jew". My response to this is: "oh yeah they can: in fact Jesus was one of the prime examples of the Jews that killed Jesus!" Now, can they be angry at Jesus for killing himself? Yes. First, ask yourself why are they angry at Jews for killing Jesus. They are angry because if Jesus were to stay alive he would have preached some more, yet his preachings were cut short by crucifixion. Well, for that exact reason they can be angry at Jesus for choosing to lay down his life: he choose to leave them instead of teaching them some more. Of course nobody is angry at Jesus for this because they realize he had to do it in order to be a sin sacrifice. But that same argument was used to vindicate the Jews, too (see point 9). But since they forget about this when they are angry at Jews, they can also forget about this in the process of being angry at Jesus. Or even if they do realize that Jesus had to die, they can still be angry at him for not prolonging his time on earth until then. Interestingly enough, their anger at Jesus for not prolonging his life would be pretty similar to their anger at Jews. Part of the anger at the Jews is that they were God's chosen yet they didn't uphold their mission. And then the following statements of anger would go hand in hand:

a) Jews were God's chosen but they didn't uphold their mission

b) Jesus was sent to earth but instead of preaching some more he decided to lay down his life

c) Jews killed their own prophets (that goes hand in hand with a)

d) One example of Jews killing their own prophets was them killing Jesus

e) Jesus was one of the prime examples of a Jew that killed Jesus (which goes hand in hand with both "b" and "d")



klanka
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16 Jun 2022, 3:04 pm

He said he laid down his life himself.
I don't know if anyone hates the descendants of those who killed him...if they did, it wouldn't make sense as it was his mission.

But then, what of Judas Iscariot...I don't really understand it myself.



The_Walrus
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16 Jun 2022, 4:35 pm

#1 and #10 are the only options that are supported by history.

Within the fiction of the Bible, #2, #4, #5, and #6 make sense to me.

Ethnic guilt and genetic guilt are ludicrous concepts. And of course the ethnic stuff is usually based on really sh***y understandings of population genetics. If any of the people involved in the real crucifixion have surviving descendants, then they probably have around a billion, essentially encompassing most of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. Likewise, almost all European people have Khazar ancestors. We're very closely related.



naturalplastic
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16 Jun 2022, 5:34 pm

The early Christians seem to have spun the story so that the Roman empire did not get blamed - so-SOME one had to "take the fall" for killing Christ. So it became the Jews. Since Rome ruled the entire world from Syria to Spain, and from the Sahara to Scotland,- every place the Christians sought to spread the good news was within the Roman Empire. So blaming the death of your messiah on the rulers of the people whom you are trying to convert is risky -and suicidal- so I think that it is safe to say blaming the Jews was spin - that centuries later became used to justify anti semitism.



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16 Jun 2022, 6:28 pm

Once thing that is missing in all this: Jesus survived His crucifixion, so if anyone is still guilty, they are guilty only of attempted murder.

The same gospels that said Jesus died also said that he rose again, walked among us, met with His disciples, ate with them, spoke with them, and then ascended bodily into Heaven.

Besides, He died for the remission of sin, including the sins of those whose actions led to His crucifixion. Thus, no one would be guilty of killing Jesus, especially those for whom He prayed,
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34).

Thus rendering moot any discussion of guilt in this context.



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16 Jun 2022, 6:42 pm



i realize 'This' is 'Literal Conjecture' on "Who Killed Jesus"

Yet the Truth is, Considering It is A Story Written By No One

Named Jesus And or Yeshua, ETc. AS Such; The Only Folks Who Can/Will/Do Really

Kill 'The Story' And 'Message' Are the Ones Who Actually BeLiEVE iN it; Considering

This, It's 'Safe' to Dance And Sing

That For the Last 2000 Years or So
From Whoever Was Potentially

Crucified Before in The Story
About the Associated Hero;

A Little Humble Brown Dude,
Probably about 5 Feet Tall,
A Little Shorter Than 'Picasso'

(And At Best Without Horrible
Personality Disorders, Harming
Others, Particularly Women Now too)

Yet Likely With Shortly Cropped
Hair and Potentially Having A Beard
And Likely Not Nearly As Overweight;
Probably around 106 Pounds or So at
Available Dietary 'Supplements' Way Back
Then "Paleontologically" Speaking As Some

Studies Show the Potentiality that the Artistic
"Last Supper" Renditions May Greater Reflect Da Vinci's
Eccentric Style of Long Hair, Modern European For His Day too, Rather Androgynously

'Artistic' As Such too; a 'Far Cry' From Patriarchal Enough to Gain Any Dude's Attention
From the Patriarchy of the Day of the Dude of Yeshua or Jesus and or the Such; Anyway,

As Far As Who Made Him 'The King of the UniVerse' And More Like A 'Sun God' For Constantine

And the Such to Mirror in Demagogue Ways; And The 'Catholic' Roman Empire Church Assuring Status
And Power for those in Leadership There; Yes, The Ones Who Truly Killed The Story of A Teacher, Otherwise

Who Taught Beautitudes

of Servant-Leader WHeRE

Last is First

To Take Care of
the Poorest And Most
Disabled And Sick First
And Outcast Too; Yes, As Soon As They

Worshipped Jesus As A King of the UniVerse For
Real; And Only Requiring Bended Knee, Believing He is
the King (God) of the UNIVERSE AND IN doing It SO alone a Really

'Freaky' God Man Indeed As Generally Speaking, Intelligent 'Mystical' Religion

Understands Even With Science That We Humans Reflect Nature (God) From Above to

Below; Within Yes
Inside, Outside and
All Around From Star
Dust We Come From Star
Dust We Eventually Go And

Who Knows Yet Perhaps the
'Simulation Programmers' if they
Really Exist too, Perhaps We Come Again,

And Again, And Again, to even the Same Sh8t SHow

if those Programmers Are As Psychopathic as What Happens

to Kill the Original Story Message in Teachings of Jesus That We Turn
the Other Cheek And Love Our Enemies Same As God And Ourselves;

Yep Treating

Everyone As Brother,
Mother, Father, and Sister
And Best FRiEnD Us As God All that is
Just Loving All that is DarK Thru LiGHT THiS Way;

Yes, by the end of the Story of Matthew, According to the
Ghost Authors Who Wrote That Story With that Still Famous Pen
Name, Transforming Jesus into A Psychopathic Leaning God Man

Who Changes Once Loyal Do-Gooding Human Sheep into Human Goats
For Not Clothing and Feeding The Naked Homeless Dude on the Street;

God Yes,
More Aptly
Put, Devil Yes;

Changing Jesus into
the Devil That Burns His
New Felt Enemies Who Fail
His New Demagogue Instructions

Forever in Evil of Torturing And Suffering
That Way; Yep, Who Ever Changed The Story
From The Beatitudes Part to Make Jesus into A Monster

Like that

Killed Jesus
Dead on Arrival

Before He Really Ever Got
to Live As Truly Unconditional
LoVE iN Human HeARTS, SPIRiTS,
And SoULS For the Truth and the LiGHT

Is Love That is Real And True Never Requires
Worship, Never Is Afraid of Criticism, Is Always

Merciful and Forgiving in accordance With the Beatitudes

True too Yet In Complete

Lying Fashion, Never ever

Does the Complete Anti-Christ

Opposite And Burn Love Forever With
NO Mercy or Forgiveness At All For those

Who Transgress With No Chance for ANY Mercy
or Forgiveness At All From Love; Yes, Indeed 'the

Anti-Christ' is Still Alive And Well; Both at the End of the Matthew Story
After the Beatitudes; And at the Head of the 'Dear John Lake of Fire;' 'THE REaL

DEViL' in

Revelation too,
For It's true by Metaphor
at Least Revelation Exposes
What Changed of Jesus As God/Love

Into A God Damned Torturing Forever
Devil by the End of the God Damned Book...

(Heroes Changing into Villains A Common Human MeMe)

Obviously, Part of The Reason, Demagogues Like Trump
Are So Celebrated By Many Folks Who BeLiVE iN That Truly Evil Ending Story...

What Kind of Person Would Believe that an All Loving, All Merciful, All Forgiving
Turning the Other Cheek Loving Enemy Same As God Would Burn And Torture any

Part of Nature
Forever for

Screwing Up;

Sadly It Seems, in
Large Part, Folks Who
Still Believe 'TRuMP' is 'God'...

And No Matter How Big The Lie
is From 2000 Years Ago, Until today
in the Form of Another 'Little Man' They Still

Believe IT;

Cause Some
Made-Up-Story
Says So; Read That Again
Until Ya Understand; Cause Some
Made-Up-Story Says So; And Then
Write Your Own

And Set Your

Self Free

Or Do Not;

Indeed, if We aRe
Free We Have Enough
Will/Love or 'The Other'
to Write Our Own Stories of Life...

It's truly Amazing, A Person Can Write
A Story As Twisted And As Sick As the Story
of 'TRumP' in Biggest Lies They Will Come Up with
And No Matter How Despicable and Deplorable the Story is

There is A 'Minion(s)'
Somewhere Who
Is Even Willing to
Give Up THeir Life
on '5th Avenue' To Believe
it, Even If 'God or Trump' Says in Advance

He'll Shoot Someone or Burn Them Forever
And You'll Still BeLiEVE iN the Story AND THE

'LITTLE MAN DEMAGOGUE' NO MATTER WHAT

YOU KNOW WHAT i Believe in the Love (God) Part of the

Story of Jesus; And It's True, i don't imagine TRuMP is Not Real Either...

It's Truly Amazing
And Reflective of

Reality that

Both Jesus
And Trump
Are 'Human Archetypes'
Still Living in the Same God
Damned Book And Reality Now;

For It's True, This Is Reality; TRuMP
Pie, The Tween, And Heaven in
Eden Still Now For Real....

Enjoy Your Popcorn

'Eve' (my Wife For Real; Or 'Nova'
if Ya Wanna Use that Metaphor
From the "Planet of the Apes"
Bible Story too) The Human
TRuMP God Damned Real Story

is Much More Interesting than
Fiction; Don't Need No Popcorn
to Pay Attention to it, Hehe; Just
So GOD Damning to Loving Now

Interesting

Indeed iT All Is;
Seriously, i Could And Do
Watch it For 62 Years; And
Never Even get bored... In this
Way, These Are The Best of Nows to Exist

in
Eden
of Course
At Least for Real...

Not Unlike That Famous
SHow of the Twilight Zone;

Beware When The Dude(s) Who
Write 'The Book' Means it when
It Says 'To Serve Humans' When Ya
Find Out 'They' Were Never REALLY Hiding IT
Was A 'TRuMP' Cook Book By the End of the Story'

As They Say,
And Or Dance
And Sing Past
Just Sitting
And Walking;

Bon Appétit;

Different Tastes For
Different Folks... And THeRe Goes/ComeS AGAiN
the Condition of 'The Depth of the Story' By Humans...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp_EhjlLGkQ



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16 Jun 2022, 6:49 pm

I believe it was Seth, god of the underworld.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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16 Jun 2022, 8:22 pm

QFT wrote:
First of all, let me clarify that the intention of this post has nothing to do with trying to say which opinion is right and which is wrong.

Given human nature, that is the direction which comments are guaranteed to end up going.
Looks like it has already begun.


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r00tb33r
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16 Jun 2022, 9:49 pm

Han shot first.


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16 Jun 2022, 11:47 pm

The guy on the grassy knoll.


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17 Jun 2022, 1:03 am

Fnord wrote:
Once thing that is missing in all this: Jesus survived His crucifixion, so if anyone is still guilty, they are guilty only of attempted murder.

The same gospels that said Jesus died also said that he rose again, walked among us, met with His disciples, ate with them, spoke with them, and then ascended bodily into Heaven.

Besides, He died for the remission of sin, including the sins of those whose actions led to His crucifixion. Thus, no one would be guilty of killing Jesus, especially those for whom He prayed,
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34).

Thus rendering moot any discussion of guilt in this context.


It's "missing" because...it isnt true. :lol:

He didnt "survive" at all. He was dead as a door nail. BUT came BACK to life. Thats why its considered a "miracle". Thats if you go by the Gospels.

That part of what you said is nonsense.


Unless youre going by revisionist theories - that he might have pulled off a scam to make it look like it was a miracle, and was only comatose, and then got better, and never really died.

But youre right that the whole thing is stupid- because he was supposed to die -for our sins. If anything he himself was guilty of "suicide by cop".



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17 Jun 2022, 1:08 am

Misslizard wrote:
The guy on the grassy knoll.


That dude again :lol:



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17 Jun 2022, 1:12 am

Number eleven is ...idiocy wrapped in idiocy.

You hit a nail on the head about just ONE of the many problems with the theory. There are many other nails to hit. The Christian Iders latch on to Arthur Koestlers "Thirteenth Tribe" theory that diaspora Jews of Europe are really Khazars - to bolster one part of their theory only to create contradictions with other parts of their theory.

But the whole notion that White Gentiles ARE descended from the Jews of the Bible, but modern Jews are NOT descended from Jews in the Bible is absurd. Its kind of the flip side of American Black nationalists who claim that Jesus and Moses and the Jews of the Bible were all Black. The Biblical Hebrews, and their neighbors were olive skinned folks with caucasian features much like the people of the Middle East today (neither "Black" like subsaharan Africans, nor "White" like northern Europeans).



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17 Jun 2022, 3:30 am

naturalplastic wrote:
But the whole notion that White Gentiles ARE descended from the Jews of the Bible, but modern Jews are NOT descended from Jews in the Bible is absurd. Its kind of the flip side of American Black nationalists who claim that Jesus and Moses and the Jews of the Bible were all Black. The Biblical Hebrews, and their neighbors were olive skinned folks with caucasian features much like the people of the Middle East today (neither "Black" like subsaharan Africans, nor "White" like northern Europeans).


Eurocentricism Vs Afrocentricism :lol:



flamingshorts
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17 Jun 2022, 6:55 am

Pharaoh's descendants. They disappeared into the sea (of people). Where is Pharaoh's descendants now?



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17 Jun 2022, 7:59 am

The Roman authorities saw a threat in this charismatic figure (Jesus)----so did the rabbinical authorities, who might have benefited from the largesse of the Romans. Both were probably responsible for Jesus' death.

They were looking for any pretext to kill Jesus. Judas provided the way for them.

Jesus was crucified to death literally, but his "spirit" was "resurrected," according to the legend extant at that time. Hence, one of the main bases for the Christian religion.