Toxic Masculinity versus Manning Up?

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03 Mar 2023, 5:59 pm

One school of thought holds that masculinity is toxic, and that men need to sissify themselves.

On the other side, some say that men need to "man up", and pursue more traditionally masculine objectives.

Which side is right?

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DeathFlowerKing
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03 Mar 2023, 6:19 pm

See this is the exact same problem I have with feminism and the concept of toxic femininity too.

Men and women should BOTH have the freedom to be what they want and not be shamed for it.

If a man wants to play football, join the army, and be king of his castle then he should not be shamed for that.

Or if he wants be an artist or be the househusband that should be ok too.

Same for women.

If a woman wants to pursue her dreams of being a scientist or join the police force and be a career woman vs getting married and having kids then good for her.

But if she CHOOSES to play with dolls and dress up as a princess or wants to get married ahd raise kids and be a stay-at-home mom she should not be made to feel bad about that either.

Honestly these debates about how men and women should behave really annoy me. :roll:

naturalplastic
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03 Mar 2023, 6:21 pm

No such dichotomy exists.

The phrase "venomous snakes" exists because some snake species are poisonous, and some are not. So they need an adjective to distinquish the two kinds.

The dichotomy that exists is:illiterates who think that the phrase "toxic masculinity" means "all masculiniy is toxic", and those who are not illiterate and who understand English and who are aware that "toxic masculinity" would be a ...toxic subset of masculinity.

TwilightPrincess
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03 Mar 2023, 6:41 pm

I think that a lot of beliefs and values surrounding masculinity in society are toxic. Men should be able to express their feelings and cry if they need to without it being frowned upon.

People are people first and foremost. Gender is not that important.

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03 Mar 2023, 7:00 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Nailed it.

Masculinity isn't inherently toxic, our society imposes some toxic values on our concept of masculinity and those can be resolved without masculinity ceasing to exist.

I'm not sure how learning to use words to resolve conflict instead of fists (for example) is "sissification". I'm not sure how learning to express negative feelings in ways that go beyond blind rage is "sissification". I don't see how not treating your partner as a subservient you can verbally or physical abuse to alter their behaviour is "sissification".

A lot of what gets critiqued as toxic masculinity is antisocial behaviour that we accept from (some) men.

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03 Mar 2023, 7:05 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:

That's not really what's condemned as toxic masculinity though, you could even have toxic masculinity express itself in a very not-traditionally-masculine context. For example:

Son has a talent for sewing and doll making, enters contest.
Folks give them the same high stress, compete and win at all odds, if you ain't first yer last pressures they'd give their son no matter what.
Son places adequately, is still upset; parents pressure them to stop crying and go punch something.

There's two examples of toxic masculinity: the first being the over-emphasis on competition, the second being the pressure to express their feelings differently. Sure it's progressive, in the sense that the folks are accepting some non-conformity, but at the end of the day they're only accepting the non-conformity in a superficial way.

The_Walrus
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03 Mar 2023, 7:58 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:

If a man wants to play football, join the army, and be king of his castle then he should not be shamed for that.

Or if he wants be an artist or be the househusband that should be ok too.

Yes, the attitude that there is a "wrong way" to be masculine is exactly what "toxic masculinity" is referring to. It's not saying you can't play football.

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03 Mar 2023, 8:05 pm

I appreciate the comments in this thread. I've been confused by toxic masculinity. I was under the impression that it was basically when a man feels compelled to conform to some idea of what 'man' is supposed to be, even when it's not who he is or what he wants/feels... like someone trying to be something they aren't and having it hurt them...that's when it becomes toxic. That things like enjoying boxing isn't toxic, unless you really hate hitting people and being hit, but feel like you have to or you are somehow not a man. But if you really enjoy the sport, it's not toxic at all.

I've had people tell me I'm missing the point, and maybe I am. I dunno. But really, I'm just posting here in hopes I'll remember to come back to it and read more people's thoughts on it all. I find it all rather curious.

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03 Mar 2023, 8:38 pm

FleaOfTheChill wrote:

Yeah, I guess maybe I was missing the point too...

But I still stand by my opinion that men and women should have the freedom to live their lives however they want without judgement.

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03 Mar 2023, 8:55 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:

Yeah, I guess maybe I was missing the point too...

But I still stand by my opinion that men and women should have the freedom to live their lives however they want without judgement.

Agreed and then some.

I'm not sure if my confusion comes from me just not really grasping (or accepting) gender roles in general, or if it's because the few people who have tried to explain it to me were people who hold tight to gender roles, or some mix of both. I just know that there are some gender things I can kinda grasp, but this one is not yet one of those. :lol:

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04 Mar 2023, 12:20 am

I don't like brash, insensitive people.

aghogday
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04 Mar 2023, 1:43 am

"Toxic" Is What Harms; There is No 'Reason' to Fear

Strength And Assertiveness with Will;

And There Is Loss of 'Feeling' to Fear

Grace of Peace in Balance With Nurturing

Love That Also Comes With Greater Intuition

And Creativity as Well as Of Course Emotions Feed

Not Only

Creativity

Yet Reason as Well;

However, When There is Addiction
to Anger And Associated Emotions With Hate,
That is Where A Toxic Element May Come into Play,

For Those Considering 'Pro-Social' Emotions Feminine
Stuff, Where Masculinity Should Avoid Emotions; Particularly,

Associated With Crying Or Perhaps Smiling too Much With Actual Joy.

i Am Raised in the Deep South Where the Poster Boy (So-Called Man) 'TRuMP

MeME' is Still Popular Reflecting The Toxic Patriarchy/Masculinity of AgeS Old

From 'The Warring Tribal God' of the 'Old Testament' That Relates Yes
This Bit of Toxic Masculinity And Toxic Patriarchy/'God' too; YucK, Per

These Numbered Verses From 'Numbers 31' of the KJV of the Old Testament:

"31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught,
was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34 And threescore and one thousand asses,

35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all,
of women that had not known man by lying with him.

So Yes, the So-Called 'Lord God' Commanded Moses

to Go to War, Harm, Rape 32,000 Virgins As 'Booty'

And Maim/Kill The Rest Who had 'Been With A Dude;'

Along With All the Rest of the Long List of Killing/Pillaging AS Such...

At Least in The Catholic Tradition, You'll Never Hear These Verses

in Their Liturgy Yet Off Course IF THEY HAD ANY SPINE THEY WOULD

HAVE DELETED

THEM CENTURIES

AGO AS TO NOT

HAVE ANYONE ELSE USE
THEM FOR JUSTIFICATION

FOR THIS SAME KIND OF TOXIC
PATRIARCHY/MASCULINITY IN THE FUTURE;

Yet the Good News is This; This Era Is Changing

to the Chagrin of Many Folks Who Don't Wanna See That Traditional

Way of Power and Dominance That Harms, Rapes, Maims, And Kills Go Away;

As True Even Down Here In the Meme of A Trump Dominated Place, Transgender

Folks Work at the Local Walmart; And Folks Leave 'em the Hell Alone As if they Start

Bullying Them, They'll Get Their Asses Thrown out of the Store By Law Enforcement

If Necessary or Store Management First...

Here's A Clue, At Best We Take Advantage

of The Benefits, Both Positive Masculinity

in Strength And Will Bring on A Foundation

Of Loving Grace in Balance That Nurtures and

Cooperates, Lifting Others Up, More Than Tearing

Them Down With Emotions of Anger and Hate and the Such

Per People Who Might Look or Act Different As Such As It is True,

Pro-Social Emotions Are Inherently Healing in Warm Cooperative Efforts;

Reducing Pain And Actually Reducing Anxiety; Plus Science Shows Emotions

Are Behind Most of our Rational Decisions, Before We Even Realize Why We Do

What We Do
Next For Real;

Yes, it Even Stands to 'Reason'
in Feelings That Emotions are the

Glue of Cognitive Executive Functioning;

Including Focus, Attention Span, Short Term

Working Memory, And Long Term Memory Retrieval too;

So Much of Human Potentials May Come Up Missing if We Do

Not Take Advantage of Yes, All the Positive Traits Associated

With Both Femininity
And Masculinity too;

It Can Make A Huge Difference

Living Past 60, Not Supporting

Several Families, Divorced As Such,

Plus Supporting A Huge Four Wheel

Drive in Front of A Run Down Rental Trailer;

Of What's Left of So-Called 'Manhood,' if 'They' Make it Past 60...

Or Of Course

A Camper And
Or A Boat That
Hardly Ever Gets Used too;

As the Price of Gas is Just
too Much For that Big Four Wheel Drive;

And All the Rest of What is Owed From Not Learning

to Regulate Emotions And Integrate Senses And Benefit

From All the Positive Traits of Both Masculinity and Femininity True;

And to Be Clear, The So-Called Traits Vary Greatly Across Cultures too...

Anyway, it's Still Not too Rare to Hear A Neighbor Yelling At His Son For

The Smallest

Issues; Yep,

Yelling At His

Son Like A Dog to Make Him into a

So-Called Man, Like Him And Trump

And All Associated With That CuLTuRaL Meme

Yet True, Never Yelling At His Dogs at All...

And So Goes An 'Older Testament' Tradition...

Hopefully, Like 'The Red Tide' All the Way Down the 'Toilet Bowl'...

Hey, i've Danced A Mix of Free Style Ballerina And Martial Arts

For 9 Years And 6 Months in Public Stores All Around This

Place for 17,933 Miles; Same Folks Who Spit on me For

Being A Boy Brave Enough to Smile in Middle School,

Leave me the Heaven Alone; Other Folks Mostly Smile;

Yet True, Yes i Weigh 124 Pounds More Than
The 120 Pounds Then in Middle School at

Close to 6 Feet Tall Then...

Yet Remember, Now They
Leave All The Transgender

Folks Who Work There Alone too...

The Days Are A Changing to the Silent
Chagrins of Folks Rotting As 'Couch Potatoes' Watching 'Faux News...'

And to Be Clear, There Are Great Apples! in Buckets of Rotten Apples too...

Best oF All Worlds

in my Opinion;

A Healthy

Mix of
Mars
And Venus too...

Yet On the Other
Hand, Here, There Is Sadly
Matt Gaetz Who Shames

Women Who Are Curvy
And Millennial Women

Who are Lonely in

Similar Toxic
Patriarchy/
Masculine Ways;

And Oh Dear Lord, There

is DeSaTaNiS RiSinG TRuMP
'Death Star' too of Soul Who

Appointed A Dude to A Disney

Oversight Board Who Believes

Drinking Tap Water Makes Folks Gay...

Face Palms Forest Thick, Older Testament Traditions Don't Die Easy...

Yet The People Who Support Them Are Only Human AND WILL 'FADE' AWAY... too...

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04 Mar 2023, 3:17 am

Honey69 wrote:

One school of thought holds that masculinity is toxic, and that men need to sissify themselves.

Wrong again. Toxic masculinity is a set of certain male behaviors associated with harm to society and men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant -- along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia -- are "toxic" due to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence.

As has been already pointed out, you have presented a false dichotomy. SOME men display toxic behavior (i.e., rape and other forms of violence, drinking and other forms of self-destructive behavior, et cetera). There is no 'need' to 'sissify' oneself. There is a need to re-educate men to be responsible, mature adults who do not rely on provoking fear and intimidation in others or drinking themselves stupid to feel 'manly', and if that is what you mean by 'sissify', then you are definitely on the wrong side of humanity.

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04 Mar 2023, 5:15 am

To me it's mostly a matter of personality disorder. If you want to see toxic masculinity and toxic femininity, search for narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder. Your average bully will belong to one of those three. Toxic masculinity can be also culturaly enhanced in my opinion. But it's because of the historic influence on culture of personality traits associated with the aforementioned personality disorders.

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04 Mar 2023, 9:24 am

A little over a decade ago, there was a book Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/manningup

Quote:

...Women are now the first sex among preadults. They are the majority of college grads, and are taking over new sectors of a recession-battered but still dynamic knowledge economy. From marketing to communications, design to nonprofits, a historic number of high-wage careers are not just open to women, but dominated by them.

And the men? From the outside, preadult men often seem like children, filling their leisure time with video games, Adam Sandler movies, indie bands, beer pong, and the company of inebriated women...With no clear life script, these men don't know what is expected of them either as men or as adults. In the past, dating in the early adult years was largely a means to an end—marriage and fatherhood. No more. Dating can mean a decade or more of miscues, bad breakups, and Match.com dead ends.

Meanwhile, marriage and parenthood can come in myriad forms or be skipped altogether. A biological clock tells women when preadulthood has to come to an end. Men? They have no pressing reason to ponder the sand in the hourglass. Why man up? Even when it comes to having children, women no longer seem to need them...

Bill Maher gives his two cents on the issue occasionally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAgUHyXr7_Y

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04 Mar 2023, 9:29 am

Honey69 wrote:

Which strawman argument is right?

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