Page 5 of 9 [ 132 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

JimJohn
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 20 Dec 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 366

02 Apr 2023, 8:22 am

cyberdad wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
The irony is that some chapters of the KKK had initiation rites for new members that involved raping black women.


Explains Why prominent genealogist Henry Louis Gates conducted one of the widest genetic surveys of African Americans in collaboration with a number of DNA labs and found
58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent);
19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent of one grandparent);
1 percent of African Americans have at least 50% European ancestry (equivalent of one parent) (Gates is one of these, he discovered, having a total of 51% European ancestry among various distant ancestors);
The 1% represents recent interaction but the other 78% of African Americans are descended from not just one but multiple rapes.


Strangely they did not test the descendants of slave owners to see if they were related to any of them. Any person that thinks that statistics do not lie should have their head examined.



JimJohn
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 20 Dec 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 366

02 Apr 2023, 8:28 am

cyberdad wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
Fact check that if you like. It does seem that there were many black slave owners that owned many slaves. It is part of the census. If you find convincing evidence my facts are incorrect I will admit it unlike the rest of you all.


That I'm afraid is a non-sequitur, The miniscule numbers of black slave holders were still subject to US constitution pre-1880s which was written by the founding fathers which allowed for free black men and their families living in the south to be kidnapped and sold into slavery themselves (needless to say these black entrepreneurs were armed to the teeth). If they lived in the north they could still be transported south or arrested without court or trial. They lived a precarious existence, For the vast majority of blacks they were subject to any random cruelty from any member of the citizenry (whom I understand enthusiastically metered out this out right up to the 1960s), One only has to look at the photos of white mobs made up of Europeans of all background (probably including recent migrants and even Jews) who seem to be driven by some type of psychopathic zeal when they screamed violence at small black children who were permitted to enter white schools, or black women who wanted to sit at the front of the bus, buy property in a white neighborhood or eat at a white's only diner, The images of police with dogs attacking young black people in the 1960s is a mirror image of the Gestapo using dogs to attack jews who dared walk on the wrong side of the street. Their children and grandchildren who are still alive today can't have forgotten their parent's language,

And even in Jim Crow era ironically needed the protection of other white people if they were asked to enter white towns to purchase goods to avoid being accosted. This is literally why the NACCP and the civil rights movement started due to fear that existed and the ever impending threat that any economic gain made could be pillaged or plundered by a white mob.

If thats not fascist I don't know what is?


It seems like you are ignoring the census data. There were many black slave owners. There were many free black people. At least more than you are representing in your non-first-hand experience account. I generally focus on things that are first hand because the rest is generally suspect.



MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,348
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

02 Apr 2023, 10:07 am

JimJohn wrote:
It seems like you are ignoring the census data. There were many black slave owners. There were many free black people. At least more than you are representing in your non-first-hand experience account. I generally focus on things that are first hand because the rest is generally suspect.

Why does this matter anyway? Why the obsession with numbers? This is a typical management-type tactic for discouraging somebody with a good argument to present, by insisting they provide numbers they don't have. Anyway this thread isn't about the history of race relations, it's about fascism.


_________________
My WP story


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

02 Apr 2023, 3:43 pm

MaxE wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
It seems like you are ignoring the census data. There were many black slave owners. There were many free black people. At least more than you are representing in your non-first-hand experience account. I generally focus on things that are first hand because the rest is generally suspect.

Why does this matter anyway? Why the obsession with numbers? This is a typical management-type tactic for discouraging somebody with a good argument to present, by insisting they provide numbers they don't have. Anyway this thread isn't about the history of race relations, it's about fascism.


Some interesting intellectual input on the matter
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... egal-phase

From it's inception by the founding fathers -in the history of US racism, fascist practices – those practices legally enabled a a number of fascist social and political movements in the United States.

It should be relevant they also enabled fascist practices in the rest of the world in the early 20th century,.



JimJohn
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 20 Dec 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 366

02 Apr 2023, 4:13 pm

cyberdad wrote:
MaxE wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
It seems like you are ignoring the census data. There were many black slave owners. There were many free black people. At least more than you are representing in your non-first-hand experience account. I generally focus on things that are first hand because the rest is generally suspect.

Why does this matter anyway? Why the obsession with numbers? This is a typical management-type tactic for discouraging somebody with a good argument to present, by insisting they provide numbers they don't have. Anyway this thread isn't about the history of race relations, it's about fascism.


Some interesting intellectual input on the matter
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... egal-phase

From it's inception by the founding fathers -in the history of US racism, fascist practices – those practices legally enabled a a number of fascist social and political movements in the United States.

It should be relevant they also enabled fascist practices in the rest of the world in the early 20th century,.


I can honestly say that sounds like rambling nonsense to me.

For instance, maybe by some stretch you can say mainline religious movements were fascist in someone’s opinion …. but to say they are facist because of the confederacy and they would not be if not but for the confederacy is the work of nut jobs.

Why even apply the word fascist to it? It is utterly ridiculous. It looks like circle jerk of morons to me. It is either a circle jerk of morons or the fourth turning IMHO.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

02 Apr 2023, 4:19 pm

JimJohn wrote:
Why even apply the word fascist to it? It is utterly ridiculous. It looks like circle jerk of morons to me. It is either a circle jerk of morons or the fourth turning IMHO.


If you read the article it says successive US governments have legally enabled fascist practices. Laws that gave rise to slavery and Jim Crow were imitated by two of the worst fascist regimes namely German Nazism and South African Apartheid.



MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,348
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

02 Apr 2023, 5:05 pm

Perhaps some definition of Fascism would help. AFAIK there is no Fascist Manifesto, unless one was published 100 years ago in Italy, but given examples I would say that Fascism is basically a movement to promote the exercise of authority for its own sake, which attracts those who believe themselves powerless and hope that by allying themselves with an authoritarian movement they will become part of the power structure. The Guardian article addresses that by pointing out that Fascist leaders have not necessarily been committed racists or antisemitism, but have used those varieties of prejudice as stepping stones to power.


_________________
My WP story


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

02 Apr 2023, 5:11 pm

MaxE wrote:
] The Guardian article addresses that by pointing out that Fascist leaders have not necessarily been committed racists or antisemitism, but have used those varieties of prejudice as stepping stones to power.


AKA fascist practices

Trump would have fulfilled the manifesto underwritten by his political mentor (the openly fascist Steve Bannon) had he overthrown democracy on Jan 6 and reinstated himself in power. A number of fascist leaders strong armed their way into power with a mix of fabricated pretexts (Trump used fake ballots) + using thugs to intimidate (Trump enabled the use of militia and other far right groups at his rallies).



goldfish21
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

02 Apr 2023, 5:18 pm

cyberdad wrote:
MaxE wrote:
] The Guardian article addresses that by pointing out that Fascist leaders have not necessarily been committed racists or antisemitism, but have used those varieties of prejudice as stepping stones to power.


AKA fascist practices

Trump would have fulfilled the manifesto underwritten by his political mentor (the openly fascist Steve Bannon) had he overthrown democracy on Jan 6 and reinstated himself in power. A number of fascist leaders strong armed their way into power with a mix of fabricated pretexts (Trump used fake ballots) + using thugs to intimidate (Trump enabled the use of militia and other far right groups at his rallies).


+ he utilizes a cult leader communication style that has his cult followers completely enchanted by his nonsense.

Cult dynamics explains a whole lot of how people could be duped by this dipshit just like people have been duped by other authoritarian fascists in the past.


_________________
No :heart: for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.


RandoNLD
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 16 Mar 2023
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 291
Location: 90º north Lat, 90º south Late

02 Apr 2023, 9:35 pm

Fascism always involves race/ethnicity/Imperialism. Mussolini wrote in his autobiography that he did not believe in a scientific validation of of race, refused to deport Italian citizens his Nazi allies wanted him to send to concentration camps, but was more than willing to commit genocide with chemical warfare in Italy's colonies in the 1930s. I understand that Fascism is not really a coherent ideology, but it has always been understood by the likes of Timothy Snyder that it always involves stories from a demagogue about Ethno-nationalism, historical greatness, a fixation on symbols (the flag, flag-themed lapel pins, The Old West, X-mas and X-mas themed imagery). I also find it interesting that many Social Scientists think that America rejected Fascism during The Great Depression because Jim Crow and the Immigration Act of 1924 made Fascism seem unnecessary; America didn't need what it essentially already had and that was a safety valve as one writer put it.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

03 Apr 2023, 2:53 am

RandoNLD wrote:
I also find it interesting that many Social Scientists think that America rejected Fascism during The Great Depression because Jim Crow and the Immigration Act of 1924 made Fascism seem unnecessary; America didn't need what it essentially already had and that was a safety valve as one writer put it.


Bingo!

Or to put it another way, the student can't really teach the master any new tricks.
The US had 400 years to perfect Jim Crow, the IQ bell curve, eugenics and several mindless cults

Think about it. What could the Nazis have taught the Americans,



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,373
Location: Texas

03 Apr 2023, 5:12 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
They were right that facism would come wrapped in the american flag idk who they is exactly in this context but someone said it and seems like they weren't wrong.

There is an anarchy in the U.K song, so where is the Fascism in the U.S.A song? I know though it is the christofasicts making things this way, hopefully they loose hardcore in the 2024 election.

I think you could make the argument that the American economy has elements of fascism in it since big business and corporations and the government work together to manage the economy and destroy small business and get endless corporate welfare.



RandoNLD
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 16 Mar 2023
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 291
Location: 90º north Lat, 90º south Late

03 Apr 2023, 2:32 pm

cyberdad wrote:
RandoNLD wrote:
I also find it interesting that many Social Scientists think that America rejected Fascism during The Great Depression because Jim Crow and the Immigration Act of 1924 made Fascism seem unnecessary; America didn't need what it essentially already had and that was a safety valve as one writer put it.


Bingo!

Or to put it another way, the student can't really teach the master any new tricks.
The US had 400 years to perfect Jim Crow, the IQ bell curve, eugenics and several mindless cults

Think about it. What could the Nazis have taught the Americans,


Yes, the Third Reich's racial purity laws were based on U.S. Eugenics laws. Can't make this stuff up. Around that time, the Swedish sociologist Gunnar Mayardahl would pretend to be ignorant of U.S. customs and "innocently" compare our racial attitudes to those of immediate prewar Germany's (Hitler was already becoming unpopular here) when interviewing average Americans, and was often met with stammering and tepid arguments that we were somehow different....



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

03 Apr 2023, 4:28 pm

JimJohn wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Strangely they did not test the descendants of slave owners to see if they were related to any of them. Any person that thinks that statistics do not lie should have their head examined.


They have, a majority of white Americans have at least one slave ancestor. There's a famous case where a white supremacist leader who was so confident of his ancestry ended up having a rude shock



If it can happen to Cobb then it tells me the further back your ancestry goes in America, the more likely you'll bump into a slave in your family treee



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

03 Apr 2023, 4:37 pm

RandoNLD wrote:
. Around that time, the Swedish sociologist Gunnar Mayardahl would pretend to be ignorant of U.S. customs and "innocently" compare our racial attitudes to those of immediate prewar Germany's (Hitler was already becoming unpopular here) when interviewing average Americans, and was often met with stammering and tepid arguments that we were somehow different....


I think there is some paranoia fed by conservative politicians and think tanks that exposing actual history to white kids at school is detrimental to their self-esteem.

The underlying principle here is no different to 1980s when conservative christian parents were actual doing the same thing to school boards who allowed the teaching of biological evolution in their kid's classrooms.

The former was thought to undermine their children's literal belief in the bible, anti-CRT is mean't to hide America's fascist roots.

There are two levels here. One is like a slide show where the teacher shows images of slaves. The republican party wants teachers to say slavery and Jim crow existed but was a benign institution and hey! other countries did that too.



Dengashinobi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Dec 2022
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 598

04 Apr 2023, 10:41 am

cyberdad wrote:
RandoNLD wrote:
. Around that time, the Swedish sociologist Gunnar Mayardahl would pretend to be ignorant of U.S. customs and "innocently" compare our racial attitudes to those of immediate prewar Germany's (Hitler was already becoming unpopular here) when interviewing average Americans, and was often met with stammering and tepid arguments that we were somehow different....


I think there is some paranoia fed by conservative politicians and think tanks that exposing actual history to white kids at school is detrimental to their self-esteem.

The underlying principle here is no different to 1980s when conservative christian parents were actual doing the same thing to school boards who allowed the teaching of biological evolution in their kid's classrooms.

The former was thought to undermine their children's literal belief in the bible, anti-CRT is mean't to hide America's fascist roots.

There are two levels here. One is like a slide show where the teacher shows images of slaves. The republican party wants teachers to say slavery and Jim crow existed but was a benign institution and hey! other countries did that too.


CRT is not historiography, CRT is a cult. Don't confuse the two. Also don't confuse racism with Fascism, they are two different things.