John Gray: Thoughts after liberalism

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First of all I'm really glad to see John has a new book out, 'The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism' (out 11/7/2023 on Amazon), looking forward to picking that up.

The interview and discussion was an hour and eight minutes total so I decided to take some notes as they went in case anyone's got price-of-bandwidth issues.


Interview:

- Starting evidence - cancellation, debanking.
- Shrinking of the private realm (free thought and inquiry).
- Politicization of the judiciary in the US.
- Legitimacy of the 2024 election - potential civil skirmishes in the US.
- Gray's idea to make a deliberate effort to bring back, and more of, spaces for confident dialogue.
- Potential for China to take 2024 election confusin in US as a good time to take Taiwan.
- China and US / Europe economically 'chained at the hip', possible that this could prevent direct military takeover attempts (espionage and party influence instead)
- Discussion of Elon Musk, triumph of new media over old media (likely to continue regardless of whether Twitter / X melts down).
- James Lovelock and the speed of climate change.
- 'Net Zero' not launched thoughtfully (inputs, cost estimation), 'candle therapy' for cancer.
- Germany's closing of nuclear to now burn coal (political absurdity).
- Current climate policy is 'triumph of the therapeutic' (ie. BS).
- If anything positive comes it's likely reinvention of democratic politics (collaboration), practical limits of political legitimacy of programs with severe negative economic impacts on citizens.
- Example of Thatcher's attempt at poll tax in Scotland and England, riots and removal.
- Technocratic elites possibly being taken to task for current failures in energy policy.
- He compares the forcing of all electric cars by 2035 in the US to prohibition.
- He hopes for hung parliament in Britain, 1990's New Zealand style reform with many more parties.


Audience Q&A:

- Illiberalism always fails (Fred Stern)?
If only liberalism works at what cost does it not work? John suggests that the whole structure of Russian economy after 1991 collapse pure liberalism was impossible, some kind of hybrid. Disagrees with Stern in that many places can only do a hybrid system.

- Bulgaria safety for Jews during WW2?
In Denmark king wouldn't collaborate, not sure what Denmark and Bulgaria had in common.

- Capitalism and decline of liberalism, act on economic structure? If so how?
Good argument for renationalizing some UK public utilities.

- Cancel culture in universities, 'disagreeing well' (epistemic humility), any thoughts as to whether it can work?
Any such initiatives can be valuable. Joke - what used to be called 'decent manners' is now called 'epistemic humility'. Need a generally accepted theory to what 'disagreeing well' looks like. Ideas that decent people can have diverging opinions has been lost (cites political behaviors around Brexit). Side note - progressives not wild about Europe because it's becoming a right-wing bloc.

- Practices in Canada around assisted suicide, hyperliberal or postliberal? Post-liberal paganism?
(his answer meandered a lot)
Disagrees on the post-liberal paganism. Classic liberalism offshoot of Christianity. Tolerance from conscientious objection, inner life where people pursued the truth without intrusion by external authorities. Enlightenment philosophers not keen on tolerance, same for Auguste Comte (always ask an expert). John parallels Libya takedown and how that worked, failure of experts. Returning to assisted suicide - corrupt, hyperbolic, hollowed-out form of Christianity. Mentions woke as hyperliberal. Values beyond the human will that used to restrain liberalism is gone (ie. Christianity's influence). He's suggesting as well that the assisted suicide is like a semi-voluntary triage, WAY more people getting processed through than Belgium. What paganism got right - human beliefs will always be dissonant, moral humility.

- Universities, Sussex professor brings up 90's poststructuralism, create a philosophical vacuum where everything has been deconstructed and create craving for new ideology?
Postmodernism and poststructuralism were not the cause of woke. Hyperliberalism is a metamorphosis of liberalism, source beliefs dropped. Why is woke strongest in the Anglosphere? Not a universal movement. Having read Derrida - the playfulness of Derrida never comes through them, neither does Focault's wit. Hyperliberalism not Marxism (almost the opposite), doesn't locate inequalities in class but rather microaggressions, culture, and interpretations of colonialism. In book - revolt of bourgeoise against their own uselessness. Opportunities are not infinite, even shrinking (John brings up AI). There's both an economic explanation and a deep cultural / spiritual explanation. Not Marxism or poststructuralism. The liberal and conservative strategy to 'go back' to earlier forms of liberalism is hopeless - needs something fresh, like recreating spaces for free thought and inquiry which aren't late and faded copies of previous ones.