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The_Face_of_Boo
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06 Dec 2023, 9:34 am









Honey69
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06 Dec 2023, 4:21 pm

The Second Video makes brief mention of the Khazars. A lot of modern Jews are offended at the notion that some Eastern-European Jews might be descended from the Khazars (people who converted to Judaism over a thousand years ago). Modern Jews typically like to regard themselves as being direct descendants of the ancient inhabitants of Judea, and much prefer the "Rhineland Hypothesis." There may be some support for both theories.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23241444/


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naturalplastic
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06 Dec 2023, 5:57 pm

Honey69 wrote:
The Second Video makes brief mention of the Khazars. A lot of modern Jews are offended at the notion that some Eastern-European Jews might be descended from the Khazars (people who converted to Judaism over a thousand years ago). Modern Jews typically like to regard themselves as being direct descendants of the ancient inhabitants of Judea, and much prefer the "Rhineland Hypothesis." There may be some support for both theories.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23241444/


There is more evidence for bigfoot and for Alien visitation via UAPs then there is for the Khazar theory of the origin of the Ashkenazi Jews. Total discredited bullocks.

For some reason Noam Chomsky, the linguistics professor and poltical activist, has latched on to it, to the great detriment to his own reputation. He is a Jewish person of Ukrainian extraction who opposes Zionism. He argues that "Biblical claims from two thousand years ago have no standing in international law"...which is fine. But then he has to put icing on the cake by spouting the pseudo scientific theory that "My ancestors came from Caucuses" (and not from ancient Judea). Thats a reference to the Khazar theory which comes from the one book written in the Seventies by Arthur Koestler "the Thirteenth Tribe", a book thoroughly panned by both real historians and real geneticists. But latched onto by antisemites the world over (that despite the fact that Koestler was also Jewish).

Most DNA studies I have read about say that Eastern European Jews are close cousins of Palestinian Arabs. Basically they are Palestinian Arabs with some admixture of Mediterreanean and European DNA...exactly what you would expect if the conventional theory were right...that Diaspora Jews went east to west via the Mediterranean, and then west to east from western Europe to Eastern Europe and Russia. Have niether linquistic nor DNA connection with the Turkic peoples of the Steppes of central Asia (which is what Khazars were).


https://youtu.be/05cn9O1RNA0


https://youtu.be/T6FctjTvFMM



cyberdad
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06 Dec 2023, 6:22 pm

Wasn't sure the direction of knowing Palestinian DNA was going, But becomes apparent.

For indigenous claims to the land, the modern Palestinians want to claim connection to the ancient Philistines (who predated the arrival of the Jews from their ancient ancestral home in Sumer).

According to the videos the DNA evidence suggest modern Palestinians are not related to the Philistines. Ironically the people who originally inhabited the Levant before the arrival of Arab and Jewish speakers were more closely related to the Greek speaking peoples of Anatolia.

The spread of Islam into the Levant saw the arrival of Arab DNA from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and north Africa. Its from these groups where the modern Arabs living in Israel come from.



Honey69
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06 Dec 2023, 7:13 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

There is more evidence for bigfoot and for Alien visitation via UAPs then there is for the Khazar theory of the origin of the Ashkenazi Jews. Total discredited bullocks.



Well, I suspect that there is more evidence for the Khazar theory than there is for bigfoot and UFOs.

At the time of the Khazar Empire, what were my ancestors doing? Probably raping and marauding (or being raped and marauded), or, more likely, slaving away and barely surviving as peasants.

Were Jews just doing specific Jewish things, and staying separate from everyone else? Possibly. I don't know. It doesn't matter to me whether the Khazar theory is correct or not.

Wikipedia has a decent summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hy ... i_ancestry

I suspect that Jewish sensitivities may be related to this:

Quote:

In debates leading up to the UN plan in 1947 to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, the British politicians John Hope Simpson and Edward Spears, intent on denying Zionism that part of its claim that drew on biblical arguments, asserted that Jewish immigrants to Mandatory Palestine were the descendants of pagan converts and not of the Israelites. The approach was one shared by both gentile and Jewish anti-Zionists. Rory Miller claims that their denial of lineal descent from Israelites drew on the Khazar theory.

In anti-Zionist argumentation delivered at the UN in 1947 Faris al-Khoury and Jamal Al-Husseini used the theory to oppose the creation of a Jewish state on racial and historic grounds. Cecil Hourani claimed that the Arab leaders had been convinced of the value of the argument by Benjamin H. Freedman. Internal British documents seem to support the claim. It would later play a role in Arab anti-Zionist polemics, taking on an antisemitic edge, though Bernard Lewis, noted in 1987 that serious Arab scholars had dropped it, remarked that it only occasionally emerged in Arab political polemics.



Jews generally like to think of themselves as descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea, a specific subset of the Israelites. There are only a few Samaritans left, who would possibly be descendants of the inhabitants of the ancient Kingdom of Israel.

When it comes to the Ethiopian Jews, I think there is considerably less controversy over whether they are descended from converts.


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naturalplastic
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06 Dec 2023, 8:34 pm

^
Hard core fanatical Jews WANT Jews to be two things:1) descended from the Biblical Jews of Judea, and 2) racially separate from Palestinians and Arabs.

The DNA actually sorta suports the first (East European Jews do have a lot of DNA from the Levant, but with some European admixture, but with virtually no central Asian (ie Khazar) admixture.

But the DNA shoots down the later notion by showing that Jews are Semites, related to modern Arabs, and especially close to the Palestinian Arabs.

Indeed in the 1920s future Israeli prime minister David Ben Gurion even stated in books that the modern Palestinan Arabs are largely are in fact "Jews" who remained in the Holy land after the destruction of the second temple in AD 70, and who later converted to Islam (Christianity and Islam actually).

Twenty years later he changed his tune because suggesting that Jews and Palestinians are siblings didnt fit in with the new Israeli national dogma.

But apparently you're right that the Khazar theory predated Arthur Koestler's book, but he gave the theory a shot in the arm and added popularity.



Honey69
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06 Dec 2023, 10:11 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
^
Hard core fanatical Jews WANT Jews to be two things:1) descended from the Biblical Jews of Judea, and 2) racially separate from Palestinians and Arabs...

...Indeed in the 1920s future Israeli prime minister David Ben Gurion even stated in books that the modern Palestinan Arabs are largely are in fact "Jews" who remained in the Holy land after the destruction of the second temple in AD 70, and who later converted to Islam (Christianity and Islam actually).

Twenty years later he changed his tune because suggesting that Jews and Palestinians are siblings didnt fit in with the new Israeli national dogma...


Well, if Jews take any stock in the Bible, then Arabs are descended from Abraham's first son, Ishmael. Abraham is also the ancestor of many other peoples through the children he fathered on his second wife, Keturah. So, the Bible has them all related.

Genesis 12 wrote:

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, "Unto thy seed will I give this land": and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him...



Abraham's "seed" includes more than the Jews.

And, Abraham was already quite old when he set out.


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Mona Pereth
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06 Dec 2023, 10:45 pm

cyberdad wrote:
For indigenous claims to the land, the modern Palestinians want to claim connection to the ancient Philistines (who predated the arrival of the Jews from their ancient ancestral home in Sumer).

No, not the Philistines. The Philistines were more closely related to the ancient Greeks and Romans than to other Levantine peoples. The Philistines were among the "Sea People" who invaded the Middle East during the Bronze Age Collapse. At that time, the Philistines tried to invade Egypt bet were defeated. The Pharaoh then allowed them to settle in and around Gaza, in the land of Canaan, which was then ruled by Egypt. (See Wikipedia article on the Philistines.)

Modern Palestinians claim connection to the ancient Canaanites and Israelites. It is likely that many of them are descended from the ancient Israelites at least as much as most Jews are.

Palestine was named "Palestine" after the Philistines, but not until long after the Philistines were gone. After the Romans destroyed Judea in 70 C.E., they named the area "Palestine," after the then-long-ago extinct Philistines.

cyberdad wrote:
According to the videos the DNA evidence suggest modern Palestinians are not related to the Philistines. Ironically the people who originally inhabited the Levant before the arrival of Arab and Jewish speakers were more closely related to the Greek speaking peoples of Anatolia.

The spread of Islam into the Levant saw the arrival of Arab DNA from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and north Africa. Its from these groups where the modern Arabs living in Israel come from.

No, although the Palestinians are "Arabs" in the sense of Arabic-speaking, they are to only a limited degree descended from the Arabs who conquered the Levant during Islam's early days.


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Misslizard
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06 Dec 2023, 11:35 pm

My maternal DNA is 6.9% West Asian , I have no claim to land my ancestors left ages ago.
It would be fun to visit and see historical sites.


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cyberdad
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07 Dec 2023, 5:08 am

Misslizard wrote:
My maternal DNA is 6.9% West Asian ,


Persian! do you have a penchant for filtered coffee and puffy cushions and soft rugs?



cyberdad
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07 Dec 2023, 5:15 am

naturalplastic wrote:
^
Hard core fanatical Jews WANT Jews to be two things:1) descended from the Biblical Jews of Judea, and 2) racially separate from Palestinians and Arabs.


Mona Pereth wrote:
No, although the Palestinians are "Arabs" in the sense of Arabic-speaking, they are to only a limited degree descended from the Arabs who conquered the Levant during Islam's early days.


To be fair I think the land that both groups occupy are a conglomeration of numerous peoples and tribes from all over,

The modern Jews have considerable European admixture and Palestinians also have various mixes, There seems to be a preponderance of blondish and red hair among the Palestinians which is unusual for Arabic speaking people.

Ahed Tamimi was a small Palestinian kid famous for standing up to IDF soldiers,

Image



Misslizard
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07 Dec 2023, 10:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
My maternal DNA is 6.9% West Asian ,


Persian! do you have a penchant for filtered coffee and puffy cushions and soft rugs?

Actually yes.


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Honey69
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07 Dec 2023, 11:47 am

cyberdad wrote:

Persian! do you have a penchant for filtered coffee and puffy cushions and soft rugs?


Does anyone drink unfiltered coffee?


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Misslizard
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07 Dec 2023, 12:34 pm

I have.Cowboy coffee.You make it in a sauce pan and wait for grinds to settle.Sprinkling cold water on top helps.
My French Press was broken.Won’t happen again since I have a solid stainless one now and no glass.


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naturalplastic
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07 Dec 2023, 1:56 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
For indigenous claims to the land, the modern Palestinians want to claim connection to the ancient Philistines (who predated the arrival of the Jews from their ancient ancestral home in Sumer).

No, not the Philistines. The Philistines were more closely related to the ancient Greeks and Romans than to other Levantine peoples. The Philistines were among the "Sea People" who invaded the Middle East during the Bronze Age Collapse. At that time, the Philistines tried to invade Egypt bet were defeated. The Pharaoh then allowed them to settle in and around Gaza, in the land of Canaan, which was then ruled by Egypt. (See Wikipedia article on the Philistines.)

Modern Palestinians claim connection to the ancient Canaanites and Israelites. It is likely that many of them are descended from the ancient Israelites at least as much as most Jews are.

Palestine was named "Palestine" after the Philistines, but not until long after the Philistines were gone. After the Romans destroyed Judea in 70 C.E., they named the area "Palestine," after the then-long-ago extinct Philistines.

cyberdad wrote:
According to the videos the DNA evidence suggest modern Palestinians are not related to the Philistines. Ironically the people who originally inhabited the Levant before the arrival of Arab and Jewish speakers were more closely related to the Greek speaking peoples of Anatolia.

The spread of Islam into the Levant saw the arrival of Arab DNA from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and north Africa. Its from these groups where the modern Arabs living in Israel come from.

No, although the Palestinians are "Arabs" in the sense of Arabic-speaking, they are to only a limited degree descended from the Arabs who conquered the Levant during Islam's early days.

I agree. I never heard that Palestinians specifically "claimed descent from the Philistines". Indeed, since Palestinians are mostly either Muslim or Christian, and because both religions read the Old Testament, probably most modern Palestinians would react the same way that most American react to being called "a philistine". They would kick your ass for insulting them (the Philistines were the bad guys in the Old Testament). :lol:



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07 Dec 2023, 5:05 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Palestinians are mostly either Muslim or Christian


Are any Palestinians Jewish?


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