The Harris nomination was not a coup
ASPartOfMe
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The government was not overthrown.
The Constitution says nothing about how political parties should choose their nominee.
Not to say it was not shocking, underhanded, and not Democratic.
It was shocking because since 1972 voters have chosen the nominee through mostly primaries.
In 1968 Hubert Humphrey won the nomination without winning a single primary. That was the impetus for making primaries binding. Before then it was deal-making symbolized by the proverbial smoke-filled room.
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But I am curious, from an historical perspective - regardless of HOW someone becomes the party nominee, when was the last time the party backed a candidate, only to pull out mid-course?
In school, they told us Truman stepped down after nearly 8 years to re-establish Geo. Washington's precedent of two terms. In reality, the party knew he would lose and didn't back him, politely telling him to step down.
Ditto for LBJ. He didn't even attempt to campaign in 1968, saying openly he would not seek or accept the party nomination. He was told behind closed doors, "You will lose, we are not backing you, step down." HHH was sort of an emergency nominee after the heir presumptive, RFK, was assassinated. So, 1968 was a screwy election due to circumstances.
I guess Biden is the same. Despite WANTING to be candidate, and despite being the presumptive candidate, he pulled out before the convention and before an official nomination. Still, at least Truman and LBJ were given advanced warning. Seems like elder abuse what they did to Biden. But, usually, the current president, if eligible, almost always wins the party nomination if he wants to run again.
The only exception to this was back in the antebellum 1850s; Franklin Pierce was the only incumbent president who actually went to the convention wanting to win a nomination to run for a second term, but he didn't get his party's support: "This loss marked the only time in U.S. history that an elected president who was an active candidate for reelection was not nominated by his political party for a second term."
I'm not sure that it has happened, it's been rare enough for a sitting President to not seek re-election at least once, with most sticking to what is close to the current restrictions in terms of 2 full terms, and up to half of another if they step in mid-term.
This whole business is retrograde and the Democrats need to get absolutely hammered over going the wrong way for the 3rd election in a row. It may have been acceptable during the 18th and 19th centuries to do that, but these days there's the ability to have much larger elections where the people are generally informed on the issues if they care to be. Just look at India, they have the largest elections the planet has ever seen and they're still a relatively poor country.
I'll personally be voting 3rd party because I can't in good conscience vote for either of the retrograde candidates that the major parties are putting up.
I don't dare say how I really feel about people who vote 3rd party.
funeralxempire
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But if we ignore the definition of a coup and just prattle on in bad faith we can pretend that Harris' nomination is a coup.
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Last edited by funeralxempire on 25 Aug 2024, 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
King Kat 1
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I can't believe this guy (who as I understand it is a well-known and respected academic) would vote for Jill Stein instead of Barack Obama.
So I did a brief search on Jill Stein, and I can't say I strongly disagree with her stated views, but the effect of her insistence on running for President every four years only helps the Right so I have to take what she says publicly with a grain of salt. She could at least take the path Bernie Sanders has taken, which is that he is not a Democrat but caucuses with them in the Senate and has never run as a 3rd party candidate (he has also asked his supporters to vote Democrat in the general election although much of that has fallen on deaf ears).
Perhaps Dr. Chomsky holds to a higher ideal, but now is not the time for that sort of thing. As an aside, the US Constitution is rather an interesting phenomenon. It's the result of a thought experiment whereby a group of people sincerely tried to construct what to them seemed an optimal structure for government. It probably gets all the shade it does because it's so unlike anybody else's constitution. Probably their biggest mistake is they underestimated how important political parties would become. But Americans acting as though they lived in a Parliamentary democracy when they don't, just adds more foolishness.
I don't dare say how I really feel about people who vote 3rd party.
What a coincidence, I don't dare to say what I think of people that sell the entire world out because one party is still slightly less terrible than the other.
We get to vote too, perhaps if more people would we would still have a leftwing party trying to earn votes.
So I did a brief search on Jill Stein, and I can't say I strongly disagree with her stated views, but the effect of her insistence on running for President every four years only helps the Right so I have to take what she says publicly with a grain of salt. She could at least take the path Bernie Sanders has taken, which is that he is not a Democrat but caucuses with them in the Senate and has never run as a 3rd party candidate (he has also asked his supporters to vote Democrat in the general election although much of that has fallen on deaf ears).
Perhaps Dr. Chomsky holds to a higher ideal, but now is not the time for that sort of thing. As an aside, the US Constitution is rather an interesting phenomenon. It's the result of a thought experiment whereby a group of people sincerely tried to construct what to them seemed an optimal structure for government. It probably gets all the shade it does because it's so unlike anybody else's constitution. Probably their biggest mistake is they underestimated how important political parties would become. But Americans acting as though they lived in a Parliamentary democracy when they don't, just adds more foolishness.
Obama was an absolute joke, he folded at the first sign of opposition and even his signature legislation was a Heritage Foundation health care proposal without a public option.
Obama was an absolute joke, he folded at the first sign of opposition and even his signature legislation was a Heritage Foundation health care proposal without a public option.
You know damn well Obama wanted a public option. Since you're so smart, how would you have gotten that through Congress?
And regarding an earlier comment, isn't it time to admit that there's a substantial difference between the 2 major US political parties in the year 2024? Or are they both equally neoliberal or neoconservative or in the pocket of Wall Street or some such nonsense? I'm tired of that time worn litany.
ASPartOfMe
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In school, they told us Truman stepped down after nearly 8 years to re-establish Geo. Washington's precedent of two terms. In reality, the party knew he would lose and didn't back him, politely telling him to step down.
Ditto for LBJ. He didn't even attempt to campaign in 1968, saying openly he would not seek or accept the party nomination. He was told behind closed doors, "You will lose, we are not backing you, step down." HHH was sort of an emergency nominee after the heir presumptive, RFK, was assassinated. So, 1968 was a screwy election due to circumstances.
I guess Biden is the same. Despite WANTING to be candidate, and despite being the presumptive candidate, he pulled out before the convention and before an official nomination. Still, at least Truman and LBJ were given advanced warning. Seems like elder abuse what they did to Biden. But, usually, the current president, if eligible, almost always wins the party nomination if he wants to run again.
The only exception to this was back in the antebellum 1850s; Franklin Pierce was the only incumbent president who actually went to the convention wanting to win a nomination to run for a second term, but he didn't get his party's support: "This loss marked the only time in U.S. history that an elected president who was an active candidate for reelection was not nominated by his political party for a second term."
The closest to the current situation occurred in 1972. At the convention the nominee Sen. George McGovern chose Sen Thomas Eagleton to be his running mate. It was revealed that Eagleton had been hospitalized three times for depression and had undergone electroshock treatment. There was much more of a stigma about mental health in those days and in the middle of the cold war having a person with those issues “having the finger on button” of nukes was considered unacceptable. After 18 days Eagleton was forced to withdraw his candidacy.
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“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
Obama was an absolute joke, he folded at the first sign of opposition and even his signature legislation was a Heritage Foundation health care proposal without a public option.
You know damn well Obama wanted a public option. Since you're so smart, how would you have gotten that through Congress?
And regarding an earlier comment, isn't it time to admit that there's a substantial difference between the 2 major US political parties in the year 2024? Or are they both equally neoliberal or neoconservative or in the pocket of Wall Street or some such nonsense? I'm tired of that time worn litany.
He had a veto-proof majority in the Senate, he could have whipped the votes if he wanted. As I recall the Democratic Senators that opposed it mostly lost their races anyways.
People like to make excuses for him, but he fought harder to get Bernie out in 2 elections in a row than he did for universal healthcare.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is not "selling the entire world out." It is making the world slightly less evil, when that is the best we can do. That's just how American-style elections are, alas.
Here in the U.S.A., political action for real change needs to happen upstream of electoral politics.
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Voting for the lesser of two evils is not "selling the entire world out." It is making the world slightly less evil, when that is the best we can do. That's just how American-style elections are, alas.
Here in the U.S.A., political action for real change needs to happen upstream of electoral politics.
I thought the same thing a couple decades ago when it was Nader, GWB and Gore. Since then the Democratic Party has continued to move to the right under the assumption that the lefties won't vote for the GOP candidates and that there won't be enough 3rd party support for anybody to outflank them on the left hand side.
That was also before GWB's incompetence led to hundreds of thousands, possibly a full million of Iraqis being murdered during the ethnic cleansing that followed the inability of the US military to properly secure the country following the Iraqi military being disbanded.
Like it or not, what we in the US do have an outsized impact on what happens around the world, so no, I don't think that it's appropriate to let people off the hook for suggesting that it's the 3rd party supporters that are the problem here rather than the normies that vote red or blue and ignore all the other possibilities without even demanding that the candidates they vote for earn the support.
I've lost count of how many unelected Prime Ministers our last Tory government foisted on us, and I guess that's less democratic than switching the Presidential candidate just before an election, so I wasn't too fussed about the Harris thing. Once a leader becomes a tarnished brand, like "sleepy Joe" had, the party notices and tries a fresh face. Of course there'll be some dissent from those who don't think the tarnish was so bad, and there may be a bit of a battle within the party. Not exactly a coup.
I think most of the fuss has more to do with the personalities involved than the principle. Most of those crying foul over Harris' nomination would be perfectly content had they nominated Tulsi Gabbard.