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The US War of 1812

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MatchboxVagabond
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01 Jun 2025, 1:59 pm

cyberdora wrote:
Peaceful protest and negotiation works much better > murder FE
In the long run an eye for an eye makes both sides blind.

the IRA learned that the hard way...

I don't condone murder, but the both-sidesism here doesn't really apply, there's hundreds of thousands of dead more by the IDF than on the other side and the other side isn't infringing on the free speech rights of Americans to help cover for the crimes against humanity.

What are you talking about? On the whole the IRA won. Most of the island is free of the British government. It's the same basic result as the US' war of 1812.



funeralxempire
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01 Jun 2025, 2:18 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
What are you talking about? On the whole the IRA won. Most of the island is free of the British government. It's the same basic result as the US' war of 1812.


I'm not sure America's failed invasion of Canada is the most appropriate comparison.


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MatchboxVagabond
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01 Jun 2025, 2:52 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
What are you talking about? On the whole the IRA won. Most of the island is free of the British government. It's the same basic result as the US' war of 1812.


I'm not sure America's failed invasion of Canada is the most appropriate comparison.

The war was to stop the British from abducting US sailors and forcing them into military service on British naval vessels, so not exactly the worst comparison.



funeralxempire
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01 Jun 2025, 3:19 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
What are you talking about? On the whole the IRA won. Most of the island is free of the British government. It's the same basic result as the US' war of 1812.


I'm not sure America's failed invasion of Canada is the most appropriate comparison.

The war was to stop the British from abducting US sailors and forcing them into military service on British naval vessels, so not exactly the worst comparison.


That was claimed as a motive, but also wasn't achieved because of the war. Once Napoleon was defeated the Brits had no further need to impress British and Anglo-American sailors.

American sovereignty was never under threat during the war of 1812, so it's much different from the IRA's campaign to restore Irish sovereignty from the Brits.


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MatchboxVagabond
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01 Jun 2025, 3:36 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I'm not sure America's failed invasion of Canada is the most appropriate comparison.

The war was to stop the British from abducting US sailors and forcing them into military service on British naval vessels, so not exactly the worst comparison.


That was claimed as a motive, but also wasn't achieved because of the war. Once Napoleon was defeated the Brits had no further need to impress British and Anglo-American sailors.

American sovereignty was never under threat during the war of 1812, so it's much different from the IRA's campaign to restore Irish sovereignty from the Brits.

That's just cope. The abductions wouldn't have stopped without the war and the ability to protect your citizens against being conscripted into foreign militaries is rather crucial to remaining independent. Whether the US won or the British lost is mostly a matter of semantics, either way the US was cemented as independent.

The situation wasn't identical, but it's not that different, the UK retained Canada from which they could stage an invasion of they wanted to just as they retain Northern Ireland for s similar purpose.



funeralxempire
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01 Jun 2025, 3:45 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
That's just cope. The abductions wouldn't have stopped without the war and the ability to protect your citizens against being conscripted into foreign militaries is rather crucial to remaining independent. Whether the US won or the British lost is mostly a matter of semantics, either way the US was cemented as independent.

The situation wasn't identical, but it's not that different, the UK retained Canada from which they could stage an invasion of they wanted to just as they retain Northern Ireland for s similar purpose.


The impressments were because of the Napoleonic wars. Once they ended there was no need for impressment.

That's not "cope", that's an objective fact.

At no point during the War of 1812 was America's independence genuinely threatened. The British Empire wasn't capable of successfully occupying the US. America's independence was secured by the treaties signed after the American War of Independence.

The US had every intention of seizing and annexing Canada.

But, with that said, if you'd like to discuss this in further depth it should be spun off into it's own thread instead of hijacking this one.


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01 Jun 2025, 4:00 pm

American children are taught that the US won the War of 1812. I would hate to participate in a thread established to debate this. It would be just be one dumbass argument after the last.


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01 Jun 2025, 5:15 pm

 ! Cornflake wrote:
Please note that this discussion of the US War of 1812 was split off from this thread: Two Israeli Innocents Shot in DC


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MatchboxVagabond
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01 Jun 2025, 5:31 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
That's just cope. The abductions wouldn't have stopped without the war and the ability to protect your citizens against being conscripted into foreign militaries is rather crucial to remaining independent. Whether the US won or the British lost is mostly a matter of semantics, either way the US was cemented as independent.

The situation wasn't identical, but it's not that different, the UK retained Canada from which they could stage an invasion of they wanted to just as they retain Northern Ireland for s similar purpose.


The impressments were because of the Napoleonic wars. Once they ended there was no need for impressment.

That's not "cope", that's an objective fact.

At no point during the War of 1812 was America's independence genuinely threatened. The British Empire wasn't capable of successfully occupying the US. America's independence was secured by the treaties signed after the American War of Independence.

The US had every intention of seizing and annexing Canada.

But, with that said, if you'd like to discuss this in further depth it should be spun off into it's own thread instead of hijacking this one.

I'd lost interest here, impressing citizens into military service for a foreign country at a time that there isn't a standing army and barely a navy isn't a genuine risk to independence?

Hence why I'm losing interest, that's just a bad faith argument. The long term existence of the US wasn't exactly guaranteed at that stage.



funeralxempire
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01 Jun 2025, 6:23 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
That's just cope. The abductions wouldn't have stopped without the war and the ability to protect your citizens against being conscripted into foreign militaries is rather crucial to remaining independent. Whether the US won or the British lost is mostly a matter of semantics, either way the US was cemented as independent.

The situation wasn't identical, but it's not that different, the UK retained Canada from which they could stage an invasion of they wanted to just as they retain Northern Ireland for s similar purpose.


The impressments were because of the Napoleonic wars. Once they ended there was no need for impressment.

That's not "cope", that's an objective fact.

At no point during the War of 1812 was America's independence genuinely threatened. The British Empire wasn't capable of successfully occupying the US. America's independence was secured by the treaties signed after the American War of Independence.

The US had every intention of seizing and annexing Canada.

But, with that said, if you'd like to discuss this in further depth it should be spun off into it's own thread instead of hijacking this one.

I'd lost interest here, impressing citizens into military service for a foreign country at a time that there isn't a standing army and barely a navy isn't a genuine risk to independence?

Hence why I'm losing interest, that's just a bad faith argument. The long term existence of the US wasn't exactly guaranteed at that stage.


How exactly were the British a threat to America's independence when most of their attention was direct towards France? Where were they going to get the manpower to make an invasion of the US feasible?

If America was genuinely facing an existential threat, why did New England want no part in the conflict whatsoever? You'd think if America was genuinely threatened that the birthplace of American independence would feel compelled to fight for their freedom instead of dragging their feet and trying to maintain trade with the Brits.

You complain about bad faith but your own arguments are rooted in either bad faith or utter ignorance of what was actually happening at the time. At least try to inform yourself and apply some critical thinking before you embarrass yourself further.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Real power is achieved when the ruling class controls the material essentials of life, granting and withholding them from the masses as if they were privileges.—George Orwell