The Israel genocide debate thread

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18 Jun 2025, 9:06 am

This topic has emerged in many different threads. Lately there have been complaints that this topic is derailing other threads. This thread is an attempt at a solution to that issue.

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DuckHairback
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18 Jun 2025, 9:13 am

There's a debate?

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CherokeeDeathRose13
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18 Jun 2025, 9:22 am

I personally believe there is a genocide going on, but at the same time I don't think it's fair to tie all of Judiasm to this like some people seem to be doing.

It's a very screwed up situation for sure, and when we Americans get involved we're only going to make it worse like always.

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18 Jun 2025, 9:29 am

DuckHairback wrote:

There's a debate?

Strangely, it would seem so. A recent debate on this topic got started here in the Israel Bombs Tehran thread in News.

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funeralxempire
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18 Jun 2025, 9:32 am

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

I personally believe there is a genocide going on, but at the same time I don't think it's fair to tie all of Judiasm to this like some people seem to be doing.

Has anyone done that here?

It seems like just a strawman of those who are critical of Israel's actions, especially given how some of the most outspoken anti-zionists are Jewish.

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funeralxempire
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18 Jun 2025, 9:33 am

DuckHairback wrote:

There's a debate?

There's a debate in the same way there's still people who argue for a flat earth.

CherokeeDeathRose13
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18 Jun 2025, 9:35 am

funeralxempire wrote:

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

I personally believe there is a genocide going on, but at the same time I don't think it's fair to tie all of Judiasm to this like some people seem to be doing.

Has anyone done that here?

It seems like just a strawman of those who are critical of Israel's actions, especially given how some of the most outspoken anti-zionists are Jewish.

I've seen it done everywhere. Including on Reddit and Youtube and Facebook. And frankly I'm not good at flipping through mental gymnastics to try and prove my point.

funeralxempire
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18 Jun 2025, 9:45 am

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

I personally believe there is a genocide going on, but at the same time I don't think it's fair to tie all of Judiasm to this like some people seem to be doing.

Has anyone done that here?

It seems like just a strawman of those who are critical of Israel's actions, especially given how some of the most outspoken anti-zionists are Jewish.

I've seen it done everywhere. Including on Reddit and Youtube and Facebook. And frankly I'm not good at flipping through mental gymnastics to try and prove my point.

I've definitely seen some pretty blatant antisemitism in comments on YouTube, but I don't believe the problem is nearly as widespread as you're suggesting.

I don't expect you to prove it though, it's just your opinion, it's not like you're trying to quantify the problem in any meaningful way, which is the only way you could prove it's as bad as you claim. You're entitled to your perception whether or not it's objectively true or just the result of what you've personally seen.

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18 Jun 2025, 10:21 am

While there is no accurate enough polling on this question I am pretty confident in claiming there is a worldwide consensus that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians.

I disagree with the consensus. In short Israel’s main goal is to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians not to exterminate all of them. Killing so many, flattening their homes is a means to an end not the end.

The term genocide of course was coined to describe what the Nazis did to the Jews. The Nazis diverted men and resources from the war effort for this cause. Despite the German war situation becoming dire and thus more resources needed for the war effort the extermination campaign intensified. That shows an intent to exterminate as primary goal that there is little evidence Israel has.

The current official and colloquial definitions are an expansion of the original intent. I am far from an expert in how the term evolved. I can say the idea is not new, I have heard it for decades. In my amateur opinion at least part of the evolution of the idea was weaponization. If you want to get under the skin of Jews what better way then to say Israel is committing genocide.

While the above is on topic morally there is little if any difference between the ethnic cleansing Israel is doing and doing what the original meaning of the term genocide described.

The Palestinians do not have the ability to commit genocide under any definition. I am convinced that they would do so if the military capabilities were reversed. I am not saying all Palestinians would support this. Any polling of them is unreliable as they have been living under authoritarianism. But I do think enough of that population and the right people to make it happen would make it happen.

The distance between Iran and Israel makes committing genocide very difficult. The only way it might happen is through the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction which would probably cause great harm to whomever employs them. The only reasons this is under discussion is the combination of the consensus Israel is committing genocide and the genocidal intent uttered by Iranian leadership for decades.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 18 Jun 2025, 11:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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18 Jun 2025, 11:00 am

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

I personally believe there is a genocide going on, but at the same time I don't think it's fair to tie all of Judiasm to this like some people seem to be doing.

Has anyone done that here?

It seems like just a strawman of those who are critical of Israel's actions, especially given how some of the most outspoken anti-zionists are Jewish.

I've seen it done everywhere. Including on Reddit and Youtube and Facebook. And frankly I'm not good at flipping through mental gymnastics to try and prove my point.

OP’s Note:
The idea that Jews should not be blamed for Israel’s action is ubiquitous here and is off topic on a thread designed to remedy other threads going off topic. I don’t expect this thread to strictly be a referendum on is Israel committing genocide. Indeed my reply mentioned other groups and intent not actions. But those were in the context of how do you define genocide which is important in judging if the Israelis are doing it.

funeralxempire
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18 Jun 2025, 11:55 am

Regarding the term genocide, as initially coined:

Quote:

Raphael Lemkin, who first coined the term, defined genocide as "the destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group" by means such as "the disintegration of [its] political and social institutions, of [its] culture, language, national feelings, religion, and [its] economic existence".

Note that this is far broader than many fans of relocating goalposts when discussing the topic would prefer, but that doesn't make their preferences relevant to the topic.

Also note that the Genocide Convention adopted a much stricter definition, largely under the influence of nations who could fairly be accused of genocide.

By definition, mass killing is not necessary for genocide to have been committed, which hopefully means we can ignore anyone who attempts to pretend Israel isn't engaged in genocide because they don't think a high enough percentage of Palestinians are murdered by Israel for it to meet the definition. Those people are clearly ignorant of the definition and have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the conversation.

Israel's constant attempts to erase the Palestinian identity are as much a factor in why they're accused of genocide as their murderous collective punishments against the Palestinian people.

CherokeeDeathRose13
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18 Jun 2025, 12:05 pm

I guess I can't contribute anything to this debate since I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim then. I'm not in the Middle East to see what is actually going on over there and all I have to go by is propaganda news articles online telling me about what's happening over there.

It's not that I don't care about the suffering going on, but I'm powerless to do anything about it and so is everybody else who gets worked up over this mess in the middle east.

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18 Jun 2025, 12:07 pm

Quote:

Israel has just made an appalling admission and nobody is listening, the mainstream media are ignoring it & we have to talk about it.

Right, so whilst it is so easy to become distracted by the conflict between Israel and Iran, not only because of fears of that conflict widening, but because after 20 months of watching Israel get away with genocide with impunity and they’re now getting a taste of their own medicine, we can’t take our eyes off Gaza whilst that is also going on, because nothing has changed there either, Israel’s genocide is still ongoing and if you don’t acknowledge that, don’t keep that in mind, don’t keep speaking out, then Israel get another win an if Gaza becomes sidelined as they want it to become, Israel having said Iran is their primary focus and Gaza is now secondary – so much for those hostages in which case – then Israel can get away with much worse and they are getting much worse.

Aid distribution centres have become every increasingly d*ath zones, the criticism for the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is entirely justified, when, given it is financed by Mossad and isn’t a US owned Swiss based NGO at all, regardless of who claims to be the CEO, very much bears that out. They aren’t aid hubs, they’re slaughterhouses and when other aid workers and aid agencies are refusing to work with them on that basis, places not of benefit to people but of butchery, its little wonder they have been referred to in at least one instance as human abattoirs now.
Right, so, in the sweltering dust of Gaza, where children cry out in hunger and people exist in a permanent state of fear, even the promise of aid has become an instrument of d*ath.

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18 Jun 2025, 12:15 pm

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

You don't have to follow propaganda/news

https://www.unicef.org/sop/topics/situation-report

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18 Jun 2025, 12:16 pm

UN Special Committee finds Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war - 14 November 2024

Amnesty International investigation concludes Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza - 5 December 2024

Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza - 19 December 2024 (Human Rights Watch)

Satellite imagery reveals total razing of Khuza’a in May 2025 in further evidence of Israel’s wanton destruction and genocide in Gaza - 13 June 2025 (Amnesty International)

Gaza genocide - Wikipedia - Last edited: 18 June 2025

International Criminal Court arrest warrants for Israeli leaders - Wikipedia - Last Edited: 18 June 2025

I included the last link because one of the crimes against humanity they are wanted for is the use of starvation as a method of warfare which is obviously genocidal behavioral.

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18 Jun 2025, 2:00 pm

CherokeeDeathRose13 wrote:

The vast majority of WP members contributing to this topic are neither Jewish, Muslim, live in the region or know people who live in the region. Same is probably true for those defining the term or saying Israel is or is not committing genocide. I don’t see why you should be an exception.

Off Topic

In the last decade this “woke” idea that only people who have lived experience have a right to comment about that experience. There is merit the idea that those who are a member of a group understand the experiences in ways outsiders can’t. This is not always true. Sometimes people are too close to situations, an outsider without emotional baggage to can see situations more clearly than stakeholder's

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