The murder of craig sorger

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There isn't one good link that describes THIS STORY.

I caught the story on 60 minutes tonight. In 2003, two 12 year olds in washington state took Craig Sorger, another 12 year old who was HFA, acording to 60 minutes, and beat and stabbed him as part of a "thrill kill".

They are the youngest people in the US to be tried for murder in adult court.

The controversy lies not with in the fact that pre-teens are killing autistics and why it happened, but that two 12 years are being tried in adult court for cold blooded murder.

One of the two is now in prison for the next 14 years, the other one has his trial coming up.

I personally think these two should locked up for life for what they did to craig.

I open the floor to discussion...

[edited to embed the url so it wouldn't break the page formatting - Jetson]

Scoots,

Are you saying that they should be locked up for life because they are murders or because they specifically murdered an autistic child?

I don't think Craig's condition should make the punishment any more or less severe.

The first option you mentioned is the one I was hinting at.

What the hell is wrong with kids these days???

In this country, a 12 year old girl from this area is currently facing attempted murder charges for trying to hang a 5 year old from a tree because 'he was annoying her'. I know a ten year old who is capable of murder - frankly he could do with being sectioned (i.e. detained under the Mental Health Act) yet he is still walking the streets terrorising people. The question for me is whether kids who are so far gone are capable of being rehabilitated. It is a terrible thing to have to consider writing off a child and locking them up for good at that age, but if they cannot be helped I think public safety has to come above the child's needs - but should remain under review after an appropriate sentence has been served. There is no justification for that kind of behaviour, and the fact that children are so badly f****d up that they would do such terrible things at such a young age scares and saddens me.

Dunc

I agree, they should be put away for a long time, but I'm not that sure that they should have been tried as adults. --They will eventually get out. I figure that if they had been tried as juveniles they could actually get some form of help to counter what they did. Adults for the most part seem to be warehoused for a while, and then released. What usually happens in this type of scenario, is that they actually come out of prison much angrier, and quite a bit of times, after learning more tricks. --In sort, not only do they come out knowing how to be better criminals, but are more likely to fall back into that type of lifestyle again.
My question is, what will they be like after they get out? Will they be better, or will they be better criminals?

/me braces herself for the inevitable shrieks of horror...

i actually had this same argument re: the two boys in the jamie bulger case (google it, if you don't know, cos i ain't going to go on about it). bear with me - it's a long one, but please do read to the end before you start castigating me.

basically, my sister sent me an email, which contains screams of outrage that the two lads were to be released after serving their time. "lock them up for life," "these boys are devils," and all that stuff. my argument is, basically - how in the name of arse do two KIDS - please note, we're talking about children here - get to the point where they do this sort of thing? yes, yes, i know - what they did, and others like them, is heinous, and they have to have some sort of punishment (i'm not a bleeding heart liberal - far from it - i do justice, not mercy). but just stop and think for a minute - these are very young people, and i do not believe in "god/the devil told me to do it". so, back to my question - how did they get to think it was a good idea? kids do not spontaneously come up with such notions and then act on them (i didn't, and i doubt any of you do/did) - where is their self-discipline NOT to do it - let's face it, we all can think of someone we'd like to whack round the mush with a lump of four-by-two, but we don't do it.

the answer is, i'm afraid, me, you, and everyone else. until we ALL take responsibility for how society and culture allows this sort of thing to happen, then we're f****d, mainly. now, neither i nor you is/are personally responsible for what they did, not directly. but while we all sit on our arses, or on the fence, and moan and tut about how awful everything is, and screech for retribution, and do nothing about the CAUSES of this appalling situation, then nothing will be done, and it will just get worse. we are addressing the symptoms, not the disease, and starting up football clubs to keep yoofs off the street is bollocks - too little and coming from the wrong direction.

i believe that most of the problem is apathy, wearing blinkers, or "somebody else's problem" (thank you, douglas adams), and not actively encouraging such behaviour, by the way.

i'm not saying i have the answers, or the cure - i wish i did. but while we're focussing on cases like those mentioned above, we veering dangerously close to the scapegoating scenario. i dread to use the word (in case i'm accused of being a hippy), but we HAVE to take a holistic approach to this. and not sit there with the moral high ground and say "what are the police/government/social workers/teachers/parents doing about it?" ask rather, "what am I doing about it?" are you colluding with fast food businesses (poor diet increases dodgy behviour)? are you inactive in politics (apathy leads directly to these sorts of situations)? do you challenge injustice? are you aware of what it's all about, the issues which actually make a difference to the world, other than the media-friendly/pretty ones? do you possess a pair of blinkers? are you a confirmed NIMBY supporter?

the aggressors in the cases above must be dealt with, as i said. and, at the same time, we have to do all of the above. and let's not demonise the kids - they are just the front line. and you and i are bringing up the rear.

if you've read through to this far, then thank you. i'm not sure if i've said everything, or been clear enough, so watch this space for edits.

i shall now leave the country for a few days, while everyone shouts at me.

Deleted

Last edited by Ante on 09 Nov 2005, 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't believe in imprisonment, and I certainly don't believe in the death penalty.

We have no right to cast judgement on other people like that, or decide these things.

Are you advocating anarchy then?

'scuse me? it's not a question of having "the right", it's a question having the responsiblity. more blinkers...

Yes, pretty much.


I believe we have the responsibility to stand up for what we believe is right- so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Clearly what these people did DID infringe on the rights of others- yet by locking them away or sentencing them to death, we are becoming just as bad as them.

Bleh sorry I'm not really being very clear here, and I fear I may have mis-stated what I mean, but my point is that I don't believe it is right for anyone to try and cast judgement on others- that is Gods job not ours.

Prisons and the death penalty are very much against what I stand for. Anything that supposedly increases our potential safety at the cost of our civil liberties is NOT fine by me.
It isn't worth all the innocent people that get locked away through flaws in the system... and who are we to say who is innocent or guilty anyway?

I saw this too.
The kid that got 14 yrs is to testify against the older one who will probably get a much stiffer penalty.
If they were tried as jueveniles then I believe they would be released at age 21.

I would respectfully like to state that this sort of notion is out of context in these cases. It is not really a question of "passing judgement" to me as much as disinfecting and immunizing society.
I do not believe in the death penalty however.

A friend of mine used to say "put them in a cell with a Bible, a Koran, etc. ..... and a neuse. Then let them decide what to do with their time."

I personally feel we will keep running in circles until we can put aside our desire to punish in favour of our duty to reform.

Yes. What is the point of punishing someone when the deed is already done? It can't be undone, The past can't be changed- so what is the use of more negative actions? I would rather see preventative measures taken, because they actually can make a difference.

The thing is that people do make mistakes. They are fallible. Now a murder or the like is a BIG mistake, but can there be no redeption for such an act? How many people on death row may one day have gone on to do great things, perhaps even spurred on by repentance for their mistakes?

In 7th grade I was at my locker and a boy ran up and pushed me and tried to look in my backpack. I pushed him away and he started beating me up. I tried hitting him with a book I missed and he ran away. He was SMILING the whole time.

why punishment?

1) to detain them so they can't do it to anyone else
2) so they understand they will be in a world of hurt (well, today's prisons are resorts compared to the past...) if they do so again

These two things are what I mean by disinfect and immunize.

What I was refering to as punishment is the human lust to avenge.
This tendency generally masquerades as "Justice", and is I think far more dangerous in the long run.