An All-Perfect, All-Knowing, All-Loving God...

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Sophist, I am starting to like you and your point of view, keep it up, your on a roll with me. lol.

I don't believe in God because God told me to! He needs someone to say, "Look! Heathen! Smite the evil atheist, for he does not believe!"

Sure. This has created a dilemma for many years among theologians and common people for centuries. It's known as the problem of evil, and it generally revolves around the following propositions:

1. God Exists
2. God is all-powerful
3. God is all-loving
4. Evil exists

And now we have a problem, because it seems that to accept any three of these premises we must deny the fourth. Of the many solutions offered, we have atheism (the denial of proposition 1), Ancient Polytheism or Modern Naturalism (the denial of proposition 2), Pantheism (the denial of proposition 3), and Idealism (the denial of proposition 4). Biblical Theism asserts, however, that these 5 points are not logically contradictory.

Personally, I never had perspecitve on the problem of evil until I became an author myself, and then it all made sense. Creation (I don't mean reproduction!) is the most godly act a human being is capable of. My characters are half of me, so they are crafted in my own image. I am all-powerful because I am their author, but I expect and demand nothing of them; I merely follow and observe them to the best of my ability, yet I influence everything they do at the same time. I may hate the things they do, but I never hate them personally. I care about them immensely and wish the best for them, the way a parent cares about his or her children, but I cannot force them into comforting and false endings, because to do so would mean stripping them of their fundamental identity. The gift of independence is the best thing I can give them, for then they truly to take on a life of their own.

That's how I view the influence of God; present everywhere and visible nowhere. Though I haven't yet made a cameo appearance in my own work in an attempt to counsel and save my characters, only to have them grow resentful and turn the tables on me. I may even write a story about characters who argue over whether or not an author wrote them into existence (and one might haughtily argue that he would do a better job), but that may have already been done.

Last edited by Thagomizer on 07 Sep 2005, 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

WE NEITHER DENY NOR CONFIRM ANY OF THE ABOVE

THE ADMINISTRATION

WHAT IS THIS "GOD" YOU SPEAK OF?

THE METATRON.

HI SOPHIST~ GOT YOUR MESSAGE, MUCH APPRECIATED BUT UNABLE TO REPLY OR SEND RETURN MESSAGE, THE OPTION TO SEND DOES NOT WORK FOR ME. DONT KNOW WHY?



Thanks



Katze

Katze - have noticed you have a problem with PMs.

have mentioned this on the Mods' forum, to see if anything can be done (sorry, but i'm catweazle, and computers are all electrickery to me, so can't help ).

Vivi
(as Mod)

Thanks, Vivi, but the problem seems to have recitified itself.......


Katze

I've never had a problem with people inventing their own teflon gods, it matters not a jot to me that people can believe all sorts of impossible things before during and after breakfast. Orthodoxy is the thing I have problems with (before anyone takes that as an insult, this is not aimed at Orthodox X (fill in as appropriate)). Whether its religion, politics, flower-arranging, whatever. Once you start to say this and only this is the correct path, all is lost. If you feel the need for imaginary beings then wire in, if you feel that things described in various books are appealing then fine. Don't impose it on anyone else though. I find the Platonistic idea that there is an ideal essence out there to which we all aspire bizarre, I find the idea that there is a "best" anything pretty bizarre, if anything is "better" as far as I'm concerned its better suited to its circumstance and not in absolute terms. If there is an all knowing, etc.... God out there then as far as I'm concerned he fell way short of the mark on explanation and design, but thats just me. When things get to the stage that belief causes harm or hampers others, its time to take a step back and have a closer look.

ALL-PERFECT: I suppose if god were to exist, then he/she/it is "perfect" physcially. It's reasonable to assume the creator of the universe is essentially perfect from out perspective. Then again, maybe he has a gambling problem. Or maybe he drinks too much space beer. Actually, I think that's plausible. Just being the creator of something dosen't make you perfect. And seeing that Entropy does its thing, it's reasonable to assume God would be a victim of entropy and be less-than-perfect.

ALL-KNOWING: I don't see why. If God exists, I don't think he has any real divine interaction with the universe. In which case, why would he even bother wanting to know everything about the universe? Maybe he/she/it has forgotten he even made it, which leads to...

ALL-LOVING: Well certainly not. If anything, he's a malicious nasty little bastard, allowing us commit countless atrocities to one another, unceasing, never-ending, ever-growing, generation after generation.

Thanks a lot, you imperfect, ignorant, hateful douchebag.

In other words, the philosophical argument is:

1. Life sucks, has sucked, will suck, could suck or might have sucked.

2. Therefore God could not possibly be loving, or doesn't exist.

The first is a given, even to the religious. This argument has visceral emotional appeal to many, but it never makes any sense. A good, loving God can still exist in a universe that doesn't revolve around you, and where you are free to make horrible mistakes along with everything else. Unfair? Well, actually, it's as fair as it could be. What we're left with is the miserable sight of the pot trying to lecture the potter.

It reminds me of an old joke in which one guy says to another, "I sometimes want to ask God why he allows pain and suffering into the world when he could do something about it."

The other guy replies, "Why don't you ask him then?"

To which the first guy says, "Because I'm afraid he'll ask me the same question."

What about someone who is caring and doing their best to put a stop to suffering. Does'nt that make this person better than the god you speak of?

Hi,
This topic has brought to mind a quote that Mother Theresa made a few years ago. I'll paraphrase,
When someone doesn't get the food they need or when people die without medical care, it isn't because God caused their death or starvation. We did." I think of this quote as I believe it's true. I believe we are often God's hands extended, God's Eyes, etc. And if we all did our part, there would be less misery in the world. I'm not saying I'm the expert here, but after reading what Mother Theresa had to say on the subject of human suffering, I've never looked at it the same way again!!

I believe that God still loves the people who are suffering or having some sort of misfortune and furthermore, do not believe God is causing/caused it.

Just my two cents.
Mellow

Last edited by mellow on 19 Sep 2005, 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

<i>" A good, loving God can still exist in a universe that doesn't revolve around you, and where you are free to make horrible mistakes along with everything else. Unfair? Well, actually, it's as fair as it could be. What we're left with is the miserable sight of the pot trying to lecture the potter. "</i>

The 1755 Lisbon earthquake is the perfect example of what Chrisitans can't answer: Ok, God. Let me get this straight, you utterly kill and destroy one of the most holiest, Catholic, pious cities. Your earthquake is supposed to somehow work into the grand plan of things? Give me a break.

And you can say the same about any atrocity. God choses to not interfere and stop them, and we have only ourselves to blame? Birth defects, spinal meningitis, earthquakes. It's all our problem, eh?

I think a more plausible explanation is God cannot interfere, which makes one question his all-loving and all-powerful status.

I certainly don't think that every catastrophe is "part of a master plan" necesarily. The only master plan in this case is the system by which earthquakes function in the world to begin with. Some are quite clearly avoidable. Especially natural disasters. Humans are often stupid enough to build on low sea level, on top of faults in the earth's crust, and other things like that.

Besides, the city is not exempt because it is Catholic, even if Catholicism is 100% true. God doesn't play favorites.

But this also tends to bring up the question of quantity. Does a Holocuast of six million disprove the existence of God? What about a Holocaust of six thousand? Six hundred? For most people, it's only a tragedy of one.

But the Bible does confront issues like this, which most people ignore. Like the book of Job. And the entire scene involving Christ's crucifixion, where the other crucified criminal mocks him for not being able to save himself. That scene is a snapshot of the entire world.

Hi,
I just wanted to add that though I believe many times we are responsible for not trying to help someone or give aid, I do not mean to convey that we are always responsible. I just wanted to add that as it could easily be taken to mean everying is our fault. However, I do not choose to blame God for problems or illness etc.

I have noticed earlier on the thread that the author didn't want us to use biblical references but I cannot help but make this one reference." Jesus says that the rain will fall on the just and the unjust alike" (Matt 5.45.)