Feminists don't understand conservative women,

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Ragtime
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05 Nov 2007, 11:50 am

and that's why Hillary won't win the election.

Feminists think all women side with each other on all issues -- that there aren't women who have minds of their own, and who think through the issues, and who pick a presidential candidate based on the most important of those issues. Rather, Hillary thinks she's automatically going to induct all American women into her voting camp because of their shared gender.
It is an insult to all thinking women, and she's going to pay dearly for that. They tried it in France, with Ségolène Royal. She was supposedly going to win, and she didn't even get 50% of the female vote, and the liberals couldn't figure it out.

Anyone see the Democratic debates? Pretty sad. Obama and Edwards "piled on poor Hillary" -- ya right. They asked her to clarify a flip-flopped answer she gave, and that's "piling on"... Now, she's hiding behind the "Don't hit the girl!" mantra... Puh-lease! :roll:

So, ya, don't worry about Hillary. She's got no chance.


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RedHanrahan
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05 Nov 2007, 1:20 pm

Would you really call Hillary Clinton a 'feminist' ?

I think perhaps she is just a patriarch in a skirt, she probably has more in common with that little rodent/dog Condaleza Rice!

All the 'feminists' I know disagree with the whole political power system as it is expressed in male competition and competitive practices. Women tend towards the co-operative/collective and consensus decision making - in my experience.

I don't think Hillary counts - do you?

peace j


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Ragtime
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05 Nov 2007, 1:49 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Would you really call Hillary Clinton a 'feminist' ?

I think perhaps she is just a patriarch in a skirt, she probably has more in common with that little rodent/dog Condaleza Rice!

All the 'feminists' I know disagree with the whole political power system as it is expressed in male competition and competitive practices. Women tend towards the co-operative/collective and consensus decision making - in my experience.

I don't think Hillary counts - do you?

peace j


Yes, I think she's definitely a feminist. Different feminists have different chosen manifestations of their beliefs, of course, but the core of feminism is the teaching that conservative and conventional roles for women are wrong, and should be shunned by womankind. And of course, Hillary fits that perfectly. She ran the White House through her husband -- you can't get much more feminist than that.

But my point is really a broader one: that liberal women don't understand conservative women's thinking -- or indeed, that they do think, and that they think about the real issues, and they can see beyond the gender barrier when it comes to which presidential candidate to vote for.


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monty
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05 Nov 2007, 3:04 pm

Why not flip the question: do conservatives understand feminist women? Or do they distort and simplify it to make a straw-(wo)man that they can knock down? Do conservatives know what the different movements in feminism are, and how they differ? Or is the goal of conservatism to demonize feminism into 'feminazism' that they can ridicule and dismiss?

The gender-gap for presidential politics varies depending on the candidates and the issues. But it almost always favors the Democrats.



spdjeanne
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05 Nov 2007, 3:04 pm

Feminism and conservativism are not diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive.

I don't think anyone should vote for or against someone based on their genitalia.



monty
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05 Nov 2007, 3:09 pm

spdjeanne wrote:
Feminism and conservativism are not diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive.



No, and conservatism is not diametrically opposed to pro-choice policies, or tolerance of gays, or upholding a ban on searches without a warrant. Except in the US.

spdjeanne wrote:
I don't think anyone should vote for or against someone based on their genitalia.


I agree. But people do tend to vote for people that they can relate to, for whatever non-rational reasons. Regionalism, gender, race, religious denomination, accent, etc. People also tend to vote for the taller candidate. None of which makes sense, but it happens.

I think the original post was hyperbolic: Hillary doesn't think that all women will vote for her. She probably will do better among women ... for a variety of reasons, including some women that want to smash the glass ceiling. Over 200 years and not one woman as president? Clearly, genitalia have had something to do with the selection of past presidents.



Last edited by monty on 05 Nov 2007, 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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05 Nov 2007, 3:22 pm

monty wrote:
Why not flip the question: do conservatives understand feminist women?

That's actually off-topic, and is also incorrect in itself, inasmuch as the determining issue is the majority of voters -- sometimes referred to as the "silent majority" -- the same people who unexpectedly landslided Bush into office by a 5% margin over Kerry in the Popular Vote.

Conservative women in this country outnumber feminist women by probably 10-to-1. Remember to count the rural areas -- America is more than its big cities, which are decidedly far more liberal than our farmland communities across the midwest. Even the Amish came out to vote in 2004 -- breaking their own precidents, because they felt so strongly about the need not to have a liberal as remarkably far-left as Kerry in office.


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Ragtime
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05 Nov 2007, 3:30 pm

monty wrote:
Hillary doesn't think that all women will vote for her. She probably will do better among women ... for a variety of reasons, including some women that want to smash the glass ceiling. Over 200 years and not one woman as president? Clearly, genitalia have had something to do with the selection of past presidents.


I think many American women are offended at the kind of woman Hillary is, rather than elated simply that she is a woman. I think most women feel that Hillary's cold, militant style gives womanhood a bad name, if anything, and I think they dislike her based on the fact that so much better a woman could be running for president than she.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 05 Nov 2007, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alex
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05 Nov 2007, 3:33 pm

Ragtime wrote:
monty wrote:
Why not flip the question: do conservatives understand feminist women?

That's actually off-topic, and is also incorrect in itself, inasmuch as the determining issue is the majority of voters -- sometimes referred to as the "silent majority" -- the same people who unexpectedly landslided Bush into office by a 5% margin over Kerry in the Popular Vote.

Conservative women in this country outnumber feminist women by probably 10-to-1. Remember to count the rural areas -- America is more than its big cities, which are decidedly far more liberal than our farmland communities across the midwest. Even the Amish came out to vote in 2004 -- breaking their own precidents, because they felt so strongly about the need not to have a liberal as remarkably far-left as Kerry in office.


Just wondering, what's do you consider feminism to be? according to the dictionary, feminism is "a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women" (link). Do you believe that women are not entitled to the same rights as men? Do most conservatives believe that women should not have the same rights as men?


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monty
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05 Nov 2007, 3:35 pm

5% is a landslide? Ok, Whatever. Off-topic? No, the topic is women and politics. You can't have conservative women without liberal women; you cant have put Dems attitudes toward women under the microscope and declare that Republican attitudes towards women are completely irrelevant to the election.

Yes, rural women need to be accounted for - especially since a rural state vote counts for more than a vote in a big state; each sparsely populated state has a quota of electoral votes regardless of their population that works against the idea of 1 person, 1 vote.

10:1 conservative to feminist? I think not. But it depends on how you define feminist. Are US women 10:1 against choice on abortion? Obviously not. Are women 10:1 in favor of the idea that the man should be the head of the household? No. While many women do not identify themselves as feminists (which is often equated with 'activist'), they are strongly in favor of what feminism fought for: the right to vote and own property, equal pay for equal work, an end to sexual harassment and domestic abuse, access to contraception and reproductive control, etc. etc.



Last edited by monty on 05 Nov 2007, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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05 Nov 2007, 3:41 pm

alex wrote:
Just wondering, what's your definition of feminism?


Well, I defined it earlier in this thread, but in general it's the belief that all gender roles are wrong, and that they are actually insulting, and an offense to all womankind.

Also, it's the belief that women should continually and aggressively challenge all male authority, simply because those males are men -- in other words, simply based on their gender.

So, feminism is actually a form of gender discrimination. It promotes the fallacy that men owe women some kind of universal apology, based on the fact that men are male. It's circular reasoning.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 05 Nov 2007, 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

alex
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05 Nov 2007, 3:42 pm

monty wrote:
5% is a landslide? Whatever.

Yes, rural women need to be accounted for - especially since a rural state vote counts for more than a vote in a big state; each sparsely populated state has a quota of electoral votes regardless of their population that works against the idea of 1 person, 1 vote.

10:1 conservative to feminist? I think not. But it depends on how you define feminist. Are US women 10:1 against choice on abortion? Obviously not. Are women 10:1 in favor of the idea that the man should be the head of the household? No. While many women do not identify themselves as feminists (which is often equated with 'activist'), they are strongly in favor of what feminism fought for: the right to vote and own property, equal pay for equal work, an end to sexual harassment and domestic abuse, access to contraception and reproductive control, etc. etc.


I think most women who identify as not being feminist don't really know what feminism is and actually equate it to those groups of women who go around hating men and trying to get porn banned because they think it causes violence against women.


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Ragtime
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05 Nov 2007, 3:45 pm

monty wrote:
Are US women 10:1 against choice on abortion? Obviously not.


Really? Then why won't the supreme court let the American people vote on abortion?

Because they know Roe v. Wade would be easily overturned.

And that goes for if they let only women vote as well.


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05 Nov 2007, 3:49 pm

alex wrote:
I think most women who identify as not being feminist don't really know what feminism is and actually equate it to those groups of women who go around hating men and trying to get porn banned because they think it causes violence against women.


I think there's a problem with the word itself, as it has been used to describe a wide variety of sociopolitical standpoints. I'd never, for instance, associate the anti-porn movement with those who most vocally identify as being feminists, as the more outspoken "feminists" tend to be extremely liberal. I'm under the impression that very few pro-abortion individuals are anti-porn.

I'd be reluctant to identify myself as a feminist because the term has been so abused, it is devoid of meaning.


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alex
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05 Nov 2007, 3:49 pm

Ragtime wrote:
alex wrote:
Just wondering, what's your definition of feminism?


Well, I defined it earlier in this thread, but in general it's the belief that all gender roles are wrong, and that they are actually insulting -- an offense to all womankind.

Also, it's the belief that women should continually and aggressively challenge all male authority, simply because those males are men -- in other words, simply based on their gender.

So, feminism is actually a form of gender discrimination. It promotes the fallacy that men owe women some kind of universal apology, based on the fact that men are male. It's circular reasoning.


see, the problem I have with that definition is that is refers to the small subset of people who claim to be feminists who don't actually support gender equality. Instead of demonizing "feminism" and thus allowing the fake feminists to own the term "feminism," (which traditionally refers to a movement that gave women the right to vote), I think it may be more appropriate to specifically refer to the people you're talking about using a more accurate label. Otherwise people may assume you're referring to anyone who supports equal rights which may cause them to incorrectly conclude you're misogynistic, a possibility I admittedly entertained before I decided to ask you what you meant and found out otherwise.


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alex
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05 Nov 2007, 3:54 pm

Ragtime wrote:
monty wrote:
Are US women 10:1 against choice on abortion? Obviously not.


Really? Then why won't the supreme court let the American people vote on abortion?
.


The supreme court is not a legislative branch of government. They can only rule on specific lawsuits and criminal cases that get appealed up to that court. They can only decide whether a law in one of these cases is constitutional or not. That said, the supreme court is arguably influenced by popular opinion.


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