Do you accept these axioms?

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1. A reality actually exists external to man.

2. This external reality is ordered.

3. Our senses can provide reliable information about this reality [if used properly].

4. Man has the mental capacity to comprehend this orderly reality.

5. The law of cause and effect operates.

6. Natural law is uniform throughout all space.

7. Natural law is uniform throughout all time.

8. All natural laws are ultimately unifiable.

I agree with these axioms because I think that logic and deduction can reach understanding of the universe around us. But I recognize that this is a sort of faith, a pre-existing assumption about the world around us. While we can grasp the context we exist in I am not sure there is any way to determine what is beyond the system of contexts that existence is embedded in any more than a simulation could determine its a simulation because its system of contexts is operationally complete.

i'm flexible with it.

I can agree with those. I am glad your adherence to this logic wont compromise your faith. It should be possible to embrace both.

1. A reality actually exists external to man.
Yes

2. This external reality is ordered.
Yes

3. Our senses can provide reliable information about this reality [if used properly].
Yes

4. Man has the mental capacity to comprehend this orderly reality.
Yes

5. The law of cause and effect operates.
Yes

6. Natural law is uniform throughout all space.
Yes

7. Natural law is uniform throughout all time.
Yes

8. All natural laws are ultimately unifiable.
Yes

I believe most of those things.

I only have a philosophical issue with number 5. I'm not sure the law of cause and effect is essential to the universe. Causality is more an effect of how we think about the universe than a real law.

Yes to these:

These need further clarification before I can say one way or the other.

About #5: Cause and effect assumes time doesn't it? Time is just another dimension of spacetime, and perhaps not the only possible configuration. Who knows what the underlying reality is actually like? That said, I do believe we have free will, which means we can make choices. If you mean "free will" instead of "universal time" I can accept that.

About #s 6 & 7: It depends on what you mean by "uniform." I think I weigh about 175 pounds. But would only weigh about 29 pounds on the moon. That sure doesn't seem uniform...

Still, I already admitted # 2 & #8, so I believe there's a unifiable underlying order, which means these aren't actually axioms!

The laws of physics as we know them (underlying order) are sufficient to explain why my weight is different on the moon (and indeed, even to predict what it would be through a principle called mass), even though the "natural laws" (by one definition, my weight) are different on the moon. The universe obviously isn't perfectly uniform, and, I would argue, nothing would exist in a perfectly uniform universe. (which makes me wonder if a perfectly uniform universe itself could even exist)

No to these:

About #3: Ever heard of Plato's allegory of the cave? Yeah, this idea is much older than The Matrix. I believe our physical senses can provide information about this reality, but that they can't be reliable. You can only assume your senses are reliable as long as what they tell you is consistent with what you already believe. If it's not (and this happens all the time) then either your beliefs are wrong or your senses have been fooled. (Or both) Telling which has happened is not always easy or reliable. That's when action takes faith.

About #4: This is obviously false. (At least for now. It may be possible someday to further enhance the mental capacity of man through technology or something). Our senses clearly perceive only a tiny fraction of this underlying reality. You would know this if you ever looked through a microscope. Man had no idea about many things too small to see before the invention of this instrument. I have to assume that there are many more things we haven't even conceived of the instruments we need to conceive of!

Further, there are even things man has conceived of that man can't comprehend! Have you ever tried to visualize a tesseract? Or any higher polytope? I can't do it. Yet, modern physics requires the existence of more than 3 dimensions! And they aren't even Euclidean!

1. A reality actually exists external to man.
Reality: the state of things as they actually exist.
My answer is yes.

2. This external reality is ordered.
Yes and no. As in all things there are laws and boundaries, but they can and are broken, however infrequently.

3. Our senses can provide reliable information about this reality [if used properly].
From a subjective perspective relating to our existance, yes.
From an objective perspective relating to the universal existance, no.

4. Man has the mental capacity to comprehend this orderly reality.
See 3.

5. The law of cause and effect operates.
See 2.

6. Natural law is uniform throughout all space.
I don't know and neither does any human.

7. Natural law is uniform throughout all time.
Time is nothing but the changing of matter, its scale given meaning by our subjective perspective.

8. All natural laws are ultimately unifiable.
No.

faith is illogical.

Correct. But in his case they dont have to overlap.

He has previously stated that his belief structure is important to him. His Avatar indicates that his goal is to perform empirical work as a chemist. I am pleased that he can achieve one without compromising the other.

Last edited by Fuzzy on 13 Apr 2008, 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

1. A reality actually exists external to man.
Yes, whatever it is, it does.

2. This external reality is ordered.
What is reality? and how can we tell if it is ordered or not, and how many derivations of one reality do exist or how many realities do exist?
Some things are ordered which can be explained by certain laws of physics, but we also have these studies about the chaos theory and the uncertainty principle to take into consideration on explaining some things in the field of physics, although I actually can't say for sure, I dont know anything about physics actually.

3. Our senses can provide reliable information about this reality [if used properly].
Not really, as humans beings make several conjectures and hypothesis of various subjects related to reality based in our capability of perceiving things throught our senses, we are somehow limited. Birds can see more colors than we can, about 3% of women I think, are tetrachromats which perceive our reality in a different way, as an example.

The Plato's allegory of the cave thing mentioned makes sense.

4. Man has the mental capacity to comprehend this orderly reality.
This is connected with #3, and as mentioned in a previous post, without instruments and technology man cannot comprehend a lot of things, although all of it has been gained because of human mental capacity.

5. The law of cause and effect operates.
It seems to operate in that way, although I believe we should get into quantum mechanics to see how this work.

6. Natural law is uniform throughout all space.
Not, certainly laws of physics don't work the same here on earth, in the vacum of space and another place like black holes for example.

7. Natural law is uniform throughout all time.
Same as #6, the theory of relativity explain the state of time and space related to acceleration, speed and gravity.

8. All natural laws are ultimately unifiable.
Doesn't seem so.

All your axioms are working assumptions that can, at one time or another, be discovered to be found false. Nothing wrong with making assumptions unless you demand that facts indicating otherwise be suppressed.

That is the only moral assumption you can make. If you take the solipsistic position that everything but yourself is a figment of your imagination, and you reason you can do anything you like to beings you only imagine, there would be a risk that you hurt someone real while you treat them as products of your imagination. Therefore you should assume an external reality unless you can prove the opposite. I don't think it is possible to prove there is no external reality.


Clearly there is some order. You either have to assume all of it has some kind of order, or else you must admit the possibility of a paradoxical universe, in which there are things that both must and can't happen. And as I understand it, then you can't have any order at all. Check with a mathematician whether my reasoning is correct.


Only approximately. Much of sensory perception is guesses based on past experiences and their interpretation.


Perhaps, perhaps not. Is there any reason to believe the complexity of the universe is neatly matched to the capacity of an intellect that evolved for a hunter gatherer lifestyle?


In the sense that the universe is not paradoxical (see point 2), yes. but possibly not in the common sense interpretation. Ask the quantum physicists, or wait until someone comes up with the grand unified theory.


Those we know, not necessarily. The grand unified theory would have to apply universally, unless you admit the possibility of a paradoxical universe.


See above


They have to be unless you assume a paradoxical universe.

If you take an axiom to mean "a self-evident truth," then only two of those are axioms. The rest are corollaries.

I would like to know EXACTLY what you mean by 8, however. Are you talking Unified Field Theory here?

"I find religion...highly illogical."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fFmhWlsMjjY

that was fun.