a non-inflamitory question for any christians-

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Manfrednissley
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27 May 2008, 8:36 am

Orwell wrote:

Well, if you're referring to the epistles of Paul, we have to take those within their historical context- we don't exactly ascribe divinity to the early church fathers.

Anyways, Presbyterians in general are pretty liberal in Biblical interpretation. We don't take it literally, but we accept the idea of divine inspiration.

huh? so what if you dont ascribe divinity to the early church leaders. but he bible is still divinly inspired.

wow just read a few of the other posts here. I am reading a lot of heretical statements!

Ragtime
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27 May 2008, 12:04 pm

Jainaday wrote:

Have you ever had any trouble accepting the inferior status of women that most common understandings of the bible imply?

Flawed premise. You've placed an answer within the question itself, negating its purpose.

And thank you for being non-inflamatory. Few grace us with that.

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Orwell
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27 May 2008, 3:34 pm

Manfrednissley wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Everyone is orthodox to himself. Read John Locke's Letter Concerning Toleration. Also, some people have different ideas of what exactly "divine inspiration" really means.

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Manfrednissley
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27 May 2008, 5:06 pm

if you question the writtings of paul then you must question the gospels as well.
now dont give me, "well paul did not walk with Christ." must i remind you that paul not only followed christ he was blinded by christ?

good point ragtime.

btw jainaday did the righting of paul make you want to cut your hair or did your pride? if it is pride then that is sin.

Quote:

oscuria wrote
Although I am not a Christian I understand why the other Gospels are not accepted: Because they do not carry a similar message. Consider the Jews falling upon a scripture from "their prophet" which said "Israel is not chosen, they have been mislead since Abraham" or "Ishmael would inherent the earth. He is greater than Isaac". These sentences if accepted would destroy their history and religion.

um i am afraid you need to study the scriptures before you misquote something.

hey speckles before you accept the doctrine of anyone please do research of your own.

BazzaMcKenzie
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27 May 2008, 7:12 pm

# Alexander Lehrman, BibleTexts.com's guest commentator, comments (excerpted from http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa132.htm) wrote:

Paul does talk about head-coverings for men and women. In the context of a few verses before Chapter 11 -- "Be without offense both to the Jews and to the Greeks and to the church of God," etc., Paul praises his addressees for remembering what he transmitted to them previously (11:2), and then he recapitulates what he transmitted to them (verses 3-9). But then he revises that, in light of what is true "in the Lord" (verse 11) and of the fact that "everything is from God" (verse 12, cf. also 10:31 "...you do everything to the glory of God"). And then comes the rest, with the gist that "the hair is given in place of a covering" to both men and women (verse 15; note that the KJV "her" in "is given her" is an addition, to be removed). In verse 16, I think what Paul is referring to when he says "we don't have such a custom," etc., is the liking to be contentious. This takes him to a discussion of "divisions" further on (verse 18 ff.).

In any case, if Paul never met Jesus, where does his authority come from to say

1 Corinthians 11:1 wrote:

Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.

Why should I keep Paul's ordinances?

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Speckles
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27 May 2008, 7:39 pm

Manfrednissley wrote:

hey speckles before you accept the doctrine of anyone please do research of your own.

Regarding treating women equally and not taking the bible literally, my church does have the exact same view as Presbyterians, at least the ones I know. Just because some of my beliefs are the same as Orwell's doesn't mean that I'm accepting his doctrine uncritically, or am accepting it at all. Though I supposed that if I moved to an area with no UCoC churches, I might start going to a Presbyterian one. But I don't see how that matters, or why it should indicate that I don't do research.

I'm confused at what you are getting at.

Manfrednissley
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27 May 2008, 7:42 pm

here is why bazza!

Acts 9
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

God told Saul what to do!

Manfrednissley
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27 May 2008, 7:51 pm

Speckles wrote:

Manfrednissley wrote:

hey speckles before you accept the doctrine of anyone please do research of your own.

your right i should have clarified a little. :oops:

what i mean is in reference to God having a female conitation to his name in the OT.

BazzaMcKenzie
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27 May 2008, 8:09 pm

Oh, sort of like Catholics having to follow the Pope's edicts because he is a descendant of Peter

Where is it written that Jesus said that women must cover their heads or that God said that to Paul?

Isn't it just Paul, as a missionary, just building support for early churches by embracing local custom?

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Manfrednissley
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27 May 2008, 9:17 pm

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:

1. the pope is not nor has ever been a descendant of peter. if you can prove he is than show me.

2 God said it to paul

3. covering the heads of the women was NOT the local custom in corinth in fact that city was knowen for uncovered head women many of whom were prostitutes! so that argument is dead before it can start! picture this corinth was what new oreleans is today (not counting the past few years since the hurricane). it is a busy port with much promiscuity.

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27 May 2008, 11:08 pm

How is that non-inflammatory.

Very few Christian churches actually take the bible seriously nowadays. else most christians would think the earth is flat, women are inferior, we should rest on Saturdays, plus tons of more non-sense.

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BazzaMcKenzie
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27 May 2008, 11:18 pm

Manfrednissley wrote:

1.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n13615304
However, the pope is revered not only for his Christian witness but also for the legacy that Catholics attribute to the papacy itself. Catholics believe that the pope is the vicar of Christ and is a historical and spiritual descendant of St. Peter, the disciple and first bishop of Rome.

2.
I phrased it badly. Paul also said (1Cor 4) "I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another."

Where is it written (other than Paul himself) that women must cover their head? Why can't covering one's head be a metaphore or custom, not a divine command.

3. So if I shave my head, I will be a better Christian? Its what's in your heart not what's on your head that makes you a better person/Christian.

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Orwell
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28 May 2008, 4:30 am

Manfrednissley wrote:

False dichotomy. I accept the writings of Paul (and the Gospels) as authentic. I don't question that Paul followed Christ. But he wasn't infallible, he was human like the rest of us.

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slowmutant
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28 May 2008, 5:09 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

Christian churches take the Bible very seriously.

Jainaday
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28 May 2008, 5:23 am

Ragtime wrote:

Jainaday wrote:

Have you ever had any trouble accepting the inferior status of women that most common understandings of the bible imply?

Flawed premise. You've placed an answer within the question itself, negating its purpose.

And thank you for being non-inflamatory. Few grace us with that.

I'm tempted--in the most playful of ways-- to say, "learn to effing read, Ragtime.

(also, you're welcome.)

I didn't make a conclusive statement about the bible's actual teachings--I asked how people deal with certain common interpretations that are, indeed, out there and fairly frequent.

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Jainaday
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28 May 2008, 5:24 am

Jainaday wrote:

So-- am I correct in my summary that all who have posted have come to terms with this by assuming that it's a matter of mistranslation or differing times, rather than what the bible was actually intended to say?

May I have the requested clarification please?

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