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Dox47
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31 May 2008, 2:21 pm

Anyone else find that there's a thin line between the two? To give one well known example, I've worked as a delivery driver for the last few years, and a pervasive sentiment is that black customers tip poorly, if at all. Sadly, it is a true sentiment in most cases. I'd modify it a little bit, to; "most people that don't tip are black", since that is more accurate. When I worked at a buffalo wing place, blacks made up maybe 15% of my customers, but 75% of my stiffs, and they were rude about it too. After several years of this, if the customer on the phone sounded black, I'd brace myself for the stiff, and I was usually right. Every now and then, there would be an exception, but they were just that, exceptions. Would you call that bigotry, or experience?

It made me re-examine my feelings towards racial profiling by the police, why would they do it if they weren't conditioned in some way? Since profiling was carried out by both black and white cops, I'd have to guess that it was also learned behavior. Maybe in their situation, it went "most blacks are not criminals, but criminals are often black". Again, bigotry or experience? I'd say the same about airport security, they go out of their way to appear unbiased by searching 8 year old kids and old white people, but they damn well search every vaguely middle eastern looking person they see. Are they wrong to do this? again, not all middle easterners are terrorists, but terrorists have tended to be middle eastern. Are they wrong to do this?

I'm curious to see what others think, since I'm rather conflicted myself. Ignore experience in order to be absolutely fair, or push fairness to the side to be more effective?



Letum
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31 May 2008, 4:59 pm

Your experiences with tipping are about culture, not race.

There is no genetic disposition to generosity in any race.

Most cultures do not share our unusual tipping etiquette.

It is important to know the difference between culture race and socio-economic differences.

To expect members of a certain culture not to tip is no different from expect members of a different certain culture to use chop-sticks. Same with socio-economic groups.
To expect members of a certain race not to tip is bigoted.
There is no genetic disposition to generosity in any race.



Fred2670
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31 May 2008, 7:56 pm

My parents did not raise me to be a bigot. They taught me that a person should be judged on their personal merit or as an individual, without color being used as a way to stereotype certain groups, and better yet not to judge other people at all.

It wasnt until I grew older and experienced things for myself that I learned the hard way (that every other race on the planet held a grudge against white people due to things in the past beyond my control) that I began to see things differently.


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Speckles
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31 May 2008, 8:30 pm

Regarding the police racial profiling, it is in fact rational - violent and petty crimes are generally done by those with poor socio-economic backgrounds, and a disproportionate number of blacks have poor socio-economic backgrounds. From a policeman’s point of view, it makes sense to be more suspicious of a black man then a white one, all other things being equal.

The reason why police are encouraged to avoid doing this is that people generally tend to live down to one’s expectations. If a black kid is always treated like a criminal, regardless of his actual behaviour, he has lost a big incentive for following the law. If it’s impossible to get respect or trust, why try? At least by being in a gang, you can get some respect.

It becomes a chicken and the egg thing – are kids becoming criminals because that’s how they are treated? If that’s the case, then it would be best to give them the benefit of the doubt, regardless of how many black criminals there are.

The tendency to be poor might also explain the lack tipping. If you are poor, you might be less likely to tip; 5 dollars is worth a lot more to someone who makes 8 dollars and hour then to someone who makes 20.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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31 May 2008, 11:27 pm

I think you have to imagine being on the other side of that -- being your same self, but with a superficial difference like skin color. You live life trying to do the right thing, but you still get selected out for 'special attention'/special suspicion. That doing the right thing becomes a bit irrelevant in terms of social respect. And what corrosive effect that might have on someone's reciprocal sense of obligation back towards society.



Dox47
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01 Jun 2008, 3:16 am

Letum wrote:
Your experiences with tipping are about culture, not race.

There is no genetic disposition to generosity in any race.

Most cultures do not share our unusual tipping etiquette.

It is important to know the difference between culture race and socio-economic differences.

To expect members of a certain culture not to tip is no different from expect members of a different certain culture to use chop-sticks. Same with socio-economic groups.
To expect members of a certain race not to tip is bigoted.
There is no genetic disposition to generosity in any race.


I'm curious if you've ever worked in a service position before, because the blacks and tipping thing is not only quite well known, but it is supported by numerous studies. No one has ever really come up with a convincing reason for why this is, but I see it over and over every day. And to make it worse, in my experience blacks make up a disproportionate number of complaints and rude customers. It's not exactly a racist thing, because black drivers and servers report poor tips from blacks as well. It's not like foreigners, who may not know any better, I'm talking about Americans here. Poorness is no excuse, delivery food is expensive, and if you are that poor, you should not be ordering delivery. It really must be cultural, and that is unfortunate, because it means that blacks will receive poorer service in some establishments, in anticipation of being stiffed. This has also been documented, and has been the subject of at least one lawsuit. I can't say I blame waiters and drivers who do that either, because we don't work for fun, we're in it to make money, and customers who don't tip cost us money. In many restaurants, waiters have to tip out their crew based on their gross sales, so stiffing them actually takes money out of their pocket. Can you blame them when they cringe when a customer statistically less likely to tip walks in the door?

If you'd like to see a lot more discussion on the black tipping thing, you might want to check out another board that I belong to, Tipthepizzaguy, a site for delivery people to blow off steam. I do warn you, you may hesitate to order delivery after you read some of the things said there though...



ascan
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01 Jun 2008, 3:57 am

Letum wrote:
...There is no genetic disposition to generosity in any race...

How do you know that? Certain physical characteristics correlate well with race, as do certain cognitive ones. I certainly expect there's a tendency to be less generous to people of a race other than your own, and that's genetically programmed.

As for the original post, I suspect the real reason they don't tip him is because blacks are allowed to be as racist as they want, and nobody'll dare say a thing.

Fred2670 wrote:
My parents did not raise me to be a bigot. They taught me that a person should be judged on their personal merit or as an individual, without color being used as a way to stereotype certain groups, and better yet not to judge other people at all.

It wasnt until I grew older and experienced things for myself...


Same here Fred. Indeed, I sometimes wonder if it is now the duty of real English, Irish and Scots to be racist in order to save their country from destruction. Perhaps some of you Yanks feel the same about the USA.



Letum
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01 Jun 2008, 7:33 am

Dox47 wrote:
Letum wrote:
Your experiences with tipping are about culture, not race.

There is no genetic disposition to generosity in any race.

Most cultures do not share our unusual tipping etiquette.

It is important to know the difference between culture race and socio-economic
differences.

To expect members of a certain culture not to tip is no different from expect members of
a different certain culture to use chop-sticks. Same with socio-economic groups.
To expect members of a certain race not to tip is bigoted.
There is no genetic disposition to generosity in any race.


I'm curious if you've ever worked in a service position before, because the blacks and tipping thing is not only quite well known, but it is supported by numerous studies. No one has ever really come up with a convincing reason for why this is,[...]


Why do you think this is something to do with their race?

It still looks like a cultural thing common amongst black people to me.

I find that English people don't kiss you as much when they welcome you. That's not
because white, English people are genetically
less friendly than those from southern Europe and the middle east, we just have a
different culture.


Quote:
How do you know that? Certain physical characteristics correlate well with race, as do certain cognitive ones.


Correlation does not imply cause.

Culture and socio-economics affect who we are far more than our genetics. The Generic
differences across the world are very, very small. In that sense, what ever colour the
tablet, is is still rasa.
There is some evidence for differing testosterone levels (see Risch et al. 2002), but no
evidence for any significant differences in cognitive ability.
I am not trying to play down any differences here. "We are not compelled to believe in
biological uniformity to affirm freedom and dignity". As Aspies I'm sure we know that our
selves personally.

Higher crime rates amongst black people in England and the US, lower grades amongst
white Europeans studying in East Asia and other such non-physical differences show no
good evidence of being a result of genetics. If they where, it would not in some way be
an inconvenient truth as E.O.Wilso so eloquently pointed out in my quote above.
However, the fact still remainst that it doesnt seam to be any kind of truth so far as we
know yet.



ascan
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01 Jun 2008, 9:41 am

Letum wrote:
Correlation does not imply cause.

And it certainly doesn't exclude it. It means the relationship is worthy of further investigation. Unfortunately, as most of the population under 30 is brainwashed into spouting the usual trite PC crap about culture and discrimination, few of these apparent relationships will be investigated in any depth.

Letum wrote:
There is some evidence for differing testosterone levels (see Risch et al. 2002), but no
evidence for any significant differences in cognitive ability.

You can find researchers that have concluded the opposite with regards to cognitive ability, it's been discussed here previously. Furthermore, that statement quoted above is qualified with the word "significant" and so doesn't discount there being some difference. As for testosterone levels, that could account for the high level of violence in Afro-Caribbean communities, and may also, I'd suggest, influence the propensity of that particular group to provide a gratuity to those rendering services, such as the chap who started this thread.



peebo
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01 Jun 2008, 9:58 am

Dox47 wrote:
Anyone else find that there's a thin line between the two? To give one well known example, I've worked as a delivery driver for the last few years, and a pervasive sentiment is that black customers tip poorly, if at all. Sadly, it is a true sentiment in most cases. I'd modify it a little bit, to; "most people that don't tip are black", since that is more accurate. When I worked at a buffalo wing place, blacks made up maybe 15% of my customers, but 75% of my stiffs, and they were rude about it too. After several years of this, if the customer on the phone sounded black, I'd brace myself for the stiff, and I was usually right. Every now and then, there would be an exception, but they were just that, exceptions. Would you call that bigotry, or experience?

It made me re-examine my feelings towards racial profiling by the police, why would they do it if they weren't conditioned in some way? Since profiling was carried out by both black and white cops, I'd have to guess that it was also learned behavior. Maybe in their situation, it went "most blacks are not criminals, but criminals are often black". Again, bigotry or experience? I'd say the same about airport security, they go out of their way to appear unbiased by searching 8 year old kids and old white people, but they damn well search every vaguely middle eastern looking person they see. Are they wrong to do this? again, not all middle easterners are terrorists, but terrorists have tended to be middle eastern. Are they wrong to do this?

I'm curious to see what others think, since I'm rather conflicted myself. Ignore experience in order to be absolutely fair, or push fairness to the side to be more effective?


perhaps black people just generally dislike you


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Speckles
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01 Jun 2008, 10:38 am

Dox47 wrote:
It really must be cultural, and that is unfortunate, because it means that blacks will receive poorer service in some establishments, in anticipation of being stiffed. This has also been documented, and has been the subject of at least one lawsuit. I can't say I blame waiters and drivers who do that either, because we don't work for fun, we're in it to make money, and customers who don't tip cost us money. In many restaurants, waiters have to tip out their crew based on their gross sales, so stiffing them actually takes money out of their pocket. Can you blame them when they cringe when a customer statistically less likely to tip walks in the door?


Well, there you go, that could be your chicken and egg thing. Blacks are assumed to be poor tippers, so experience poor service. Because they experience poor service, they are less likely to tip. Kids see that their parents and other black people don't tip well, so they don't tip well. They then experience poor service, renforcing their poor tipping behaviour.

This behaviour would likely go back to segregation, when blacks would in fact recieve poorer service, regardless of good their tipping was. And that was what, two generations ago? That's a very short time for blacks to readjust their cultural norms, particularly when the behaviour in question is being renforced.

So yeah, I really doubt it's a genetic thing. Something like noblesse oblige (which is really what tipping falls under, not generosity) is just too mallable to be a genetic thing. It makes perfect sense as a cultural thing though.



Dox47
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01 Jun 2008, 12:30 pm

peebo wrote:
perhaps black people just generally dislike you


Out of 3 serious relationships I've been in, 2 have been with black girls, one of them lasting 6 years. I'm also not one of those people that has to say "I'm not a racist, I have X black friends!", because I don't keep track of the number of black friends I have. This is part of the reason I'm so hard on them, I know that they know better, the attitude I tend to see is "I don't have to, so I won't". If you look at the research, black customers undertip everyone, black service people included. Personally, I give them two or three chances before I lower my service level, but that's the same number of chances I give anyone. Interestingly enough, white "wiggas" and the more rarely seen "wanksta Asians" also tip poorly, just like the people that they are emulating. If you really want to split hairs, I guess you could say "people identified with urban culture tend to tip poorly", and that would be more accurate.



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01 Jun 2008, 12:40 pm

so are you saying that not all black people tip poorly, only the ones who identify with urban culture?


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01 Jun 2008, 1:03 pm

Speckles wrote:
So yeah, I really doubt it's a genetic thing. Something like noblesse oblige (which is really what tipping falls under, not generosity) is just too mallable to be a genetic thing. It makes perfect sense as a cultural thing though.

The problem is restaurants and other service jobs pay lower wages under the expectation that the difference will be recouped in tips. In other words, tipping is not optional; it is part of the cost of the meal or whatever the service happens to be. Customers are given some discretion to reward or punish the quality of service, but stiffing for adequate or superior service is really pretty much theft.



0_equals_true
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01 Jun 2008, 1:47 pm

The OP smacks as having a sense of entitlement. The status quo/culture of tipping in the US is actually extremely unusual. In the UK they don't tip nearly as much. it is pretty unheard of to tip a door man or a taxi driver. In other cultures they don't really tip strangers at all, but might give gift to people who regally help them. Pull your socks up. :wink:



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01 Jun 2008, 5:04 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
Speckles wrote:
So yeah, I really doubt it's a genetic thing. Something like noblesse oblige (which is really what tipping falls under, not generosity) is just too mallable to be a genetic thing. It makes perfect sense as a cultural thing though.

The problem is restaurants and other service jobs pay lower wages under the expectation that the difference will be recouped in tips. In other words, tipping is not optional; it is part of the cost of the meal or whatever the service happens to be. Customers are given some discretion to reward or punish the quality of service, but stiffing for adequate or superior service is really pretty much theft.


So call the cops and charge people with a crime. Oh yeah, there's no legal protection for that. But oddly there is if someone runs out on the bill. The whole setup is a BS excuse for employers to pay less than the work is worth.

(And yes I do tip, if you're wondering, because I know service professions are explicitly underpaid.)